Should Marriage Be Easy?

AR10308 continues to prove to be a very valuable critic, and I appreciate it.

I think that this demonstrates that for most things mean to be widely consumed, being able to simplify for accessibility is the way to go. Granted, there is value in doing things that are hard, like Ranger School and SEAL training, however those are only meant for a select few. If having a good marriage required that level of focus and intensity at all times, there wouldn’t be hope for anyone.

I’m going to suggest that we’re often not understanding the depth of the problem. As Christians we must take into account that:

1) Marriage is a very serious business from the Christian man’s perspective, with serious rewards and consequences. It’s not merely about having poon-on-tap (although: be fruitful). To begin from that frame of reference is to lose sight of the inherent godliness of a Christian wife, and therefore lose sight of what we’re to be about as Christian husbands. Sex isn’t just something we do in the meantime. It’s part of our calling. Ask any husband currently being denied, and he’ll tell you he’s not only dealing with a physical hunger, but a spiritual one, as well. If we don’t agree with this, then Game (simplifying the accessibility) is what you want.

2) We shouldn’t gloss over the fact that when a Christian man chooses marriage (as he should if he burns with passion), then he is giving up most, if not all, of his effectiveness to the larger Kingdom of God. His focus must now be on his wife and family. We skip this point a lot, in our desire to fulfill our physical urges.

3) From the legal perspective: modern marriage is a pit-trap over Hell, covered over with the palm fronds of emotional imperative, dating around, and princess weddings.* Marriage is a must for the sexually aroused Christian, so he has to step out over that pit. Game seems to me–at best–a latticework that can be placed over the fronds. It can be of some use, but it has so many holes in it that, perversely, it seduces not only the woman (as is its intent), but also the man into thinking that he’s safe. What we want is a reliable, full, covering of the pit, to rescue us from that Hell.

4) The Christian marriage is also about bringing forth fruit; not only of the spiritual kind, but with a decided emphasis on the physical fruit of children, and rearing them until we give them back to Christ; as co-conspirators, not mere underlings. The married Christian must confront this. Imagine the conversation with your son, with whom you wish to be not only honest, but useful: “No, no, no. I’m not mad at your mother: I’m just Gaming her.”

I’m going to stop here, because I think that thinking through the problem from this perspective on my own was very helpful to me, and can be for others.

End Note: One of the things that was reinforced by writing this, was how much scripture has to say on the subject, and how thankful I am to my father (and my Father) for giving it to me. Thanks, Dad. There’s a lesson here about how to develop your frame.

*Dalrock and I seem to be singing from the same hymnal today. Not sure who’s the melody, and who is the harmony.

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52 thoughts on “Should Marriage Be Easy?

  1. Sometimes marriage is easy and sometimes it is really, really difficult. Perseverance is a critical virtue in a marriage; we have had entire years when things were difficult in our relationship, but we hung in there and our marriage is really, really good now. Young couples need to understand how important it is to rule out divorce as an option. I intend to instruct my daughters that happiness is a pleasant but unessential ingredient and unhappiness is never grounds for divorce. Also, hearts are so changeable; you may be unhappy now, but in a few days/weeks/months/years all may be different.

    So, persevering in obedience to God is like a cake, and what is sometimes called Game (maybe that isn’t the best word, though) is like the frosting. For example: my husband is home today and was cutting up a watermelon on the kitchen counter, but he had left the knife drawer open and juice was dripping into it. “Close the drawer so that juice doesn’t get in there!” I snapped at him. When I reached over to wipe the counter with a sponge, he pinched my rear and said, “I’ll give you some juice in your drawers.” Nice! I snapped at him disrespectfully and he put me back into place in a way that made me feel loved and desired. Is this Game? I don’t know. It wouldn’t fix a defective cake, but it smoothed over a mar in the frosting. This kind of attitude makes a marriage feel a lot easier.

  2. Marriage is not always easy, but it can be a pleasure more often than not when we have our priorities straight. This struck a cord with me:

    From the legal perspective: modern marriage is a pit-trap over Hell, covered over with the palm fronds of emotional imperative, dating around, and princess weddings.* Marriage is a must for the sexually aroused Christian, so he has to step out over that pit. Game seems to me–at best–a latticework that can be placed over the fronds. It can be of some use, but it has so many holes in it that, perversely, it seduces not only the woman (as is its intent), but also the man into thinking that he’s safe. What we want is a reliable, full, covering of the pit, to rescue us from that Hell.

    It’s one of the reasons why I think women need to know that they can never underestimate the importance of loyalty to their husband. When mother, or sister, or church friends, or even the pastor’s opinions carry more weight with a wife than her husbands, the seeds of mistrust are being sown. Even the “good things” women tend to place value on above their marriages are a major cause of marital strife. We women can get really caught up in things that don’t matter to our husbands at the expense of what does.

    I can promise them (and I often do) that it will cost friends and sometimes status in your church when you put your husband first, but it is also worth it and pays back exponentially in the form of a solid marriage.

  3. I was honestly amazed when I found that there was a real problem of men being denied sex by their wives. My wife has sometimes said no, but it has been fairly rare. I suspect that is a problem with a fundamental lack of respect, which a husband’s attitude could probably fix. (I won’t use the G- word itself on this occasion).

    We are getting older now, and we don’t have sex a huge amount, but I do think it is important to still do so sometimes, because I agree that it is central to marriage and a bodily expression of unity.

    Cane, thanks for blogrolling me. Could I ask that you change “Social Biology” to “David Collard”.? I haven’t used the former for quite a while. I am sorry that I won’t be able to return the favour, because I don’t want to meddle with my blog’s internal workings, not being very savvy about such things. That is the reason my blogroll looks a bit old and stale. (CC:Done)

  4. I’ve often said that if Christianity seems easy then you are doing it wrong.

    Life is suppose to be hard. If God has blessed one with an extra dose of resilience then perhaps one is being challenged to do the extraordinary. While most of us find ordinary life with a spouse and kids and paying bills challenging enough the very resilient person might be called to much more like adopting a dozen orphans or evangelizing savages.

  5. gabby, there is the Catholic concept of one’s “cross” in life. We all have a “cross”.

    I would say that God gives us a cross but He also helps us carry it.

  6. I’ve often said that if Christianity seems easy then you are doing it wrong.

    I’ve said that, too, and I think I was wrong; having it exactly backwards. People who aren’t disciplined are the ones who say that it seems hard. I don’t mean disciplined in the sense of trying really hard, but in the sense of in the habit–in the spirit.

    When I read Paul’s troubles (beatings, whippings, jail), I think “My God.”, but the tone of Paul’s letters is anything but! He seems utterly triumphant; as if it were the most natural thing in the world to write letters from prison while the physician paint salve on his back.

    If God had called him to lift weights, he’d be that jerk who always has a smile, and a tip; saying things like: “Gosh, I just can’t function if I don’t get my morning run.” Which, for us beginning runners, makes us want to flip him the bird because when we finally get decide to get up early enough, we say things like: “Gosh, it’s early.” and go back to bed.

  7. While I see your point Gabby, not every aspect of being a Christian should be hard.There are certain aspects of my Christian walk that are hard for me at certain times. We’ve discussed how challenging it is for me to be worshipful and *shudder* rejoice in the midst trials the way the Bible commands. Things that require lots of prayer, much grace, and daily repentance. But my marriage is not one of those things.

    There was a time early on when my marriage was more challenging, but with age and experience comes maturity and you learn how to accept your spouse and focus on doing what Christ commanded you to do as a husband or a wife. That, and focusing on these things when you consider your mate make all the difference between a happy marriage and an unhappy one.

    To be sure, some spouses are more challenging than others, and some marriages are more challenging than others, and even the best marriages have times of testing and difficulty. After all, two grown adults with their own minds will disagree.

    But no, marriage isn’t always easy, but neither is it to be a source of drudgery and misery. I think the same applies to being a believer. Crucifying the flesh is painful, but with consistent commitment, those things that are dead to us become easier to overcome while those things we are more reluctant to part with make our walk harder.

  8. I see marriage in the way I see weight loss: It can be as hard as you make it. You can use a bad weight loss system that relies mostly on your self-control (counting calories, portion control) and it won’t work very well. Or you can use a system that removes your old food and changes the way you eat entirely, thereby removing the human element (the weakest element).

    The reason I used Ranger School and SEAL Training as examples of hard things is because they are made INTENTIONALLY hard. Everything done in these courses is designed to break every person in it. They are set-up to ensure failure, success is not a by-product of the system they set up. I’m not married, but I know enough to say that that is not how it should be.

    I used the super-car example for a reason, but I may not have explained how much better modern super-cars are to drive. Every system is set-up for maximum driver feedback and consideration. The steering is perfectly weighted, the seats are perfectly positioned for visibility and formed to hold your body during high-g turns, the safety systems are meant to ensure survivability well into triple digit speeds. The SYSTEM is designed to give you the highest chance of success. Because you’re gonna need it.

    If you set your marriage up for success by establishing a proper Biblical marriage authority dynamic, you will have a greater chance of succeeding.

    What you do to give yourself the highest chance of success is to think about where you are likely to fail, and then design a system that takes those failure points into consideration. You will never be guaranteed success or prevent failure, but you will minimize it and mitigate it. Plus you can implement a system that has failure modes that are still safe.

    Obviously, you are dealing with people so “systems” are more complicated, and less predictable. However, you can still create communication methods or codes that function as safe-words for the relationship. One of the most Godly marriages I’ve ever seen (Cathy is pleasant and submissive, Dave is a natural Alpha with high Beta characteristics as well) has a few of these they built in. Cathy appreciates Dave’s ideas and offers of help on the way to do things, however sometimes he can be too controlling with it (a husband doesn’t need to be dictating how his wife loads the dishwasher). So years ago they built in something she would say (“I appreciate your help, but I can handle this”) and he would just back off and leave her to her task when she would say. It saved a lot of resentment on her part (the First Officer wants to be trusted by the Captain) and gave him more confidence in her abilities (a Captain needs to have confidence in his First Officer). Overall, it has saved a lot of turmoil for them in the day to day.

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  10. Monseigneur Caldo, I suspect that you have yet to grok exactly what Game is. I am a natural, which is to say that I had a strong masculine frame before realizing all those years ago that a man in a funny hat with black nails had begun the process of systematizing the motions that were effective with attracting the opposite sex. Given that my frame was strong, after coming to the Game side of the table I had to learn to, in the words of Athol Kay, increase the Beta. That is, I had to be sweeter and kinder to my wife. I would not be ashamed if my daughter asked me why I buy Mommy flowers to say I was running game. “Running game keeps Mommy sweet on Daddy.”

  11. @ TGP

    You might be right. There a couple aspects of Game to which I have no argument.

    It’s a very different scenario you gave about your daughter. Who would oppose to hear a father say such things, and describe Game as giving flowers? But as you beckoned to Vox: Come now, Poet, the tips and teachings of Game writers are not, “buy her flowers”.

  12. I filtered over from Elspeth’s and wanted to thank you for offering so Insightful a post.

    1 Corinthians 7:4-5 is clear about what our attitudes ought to be here

    The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
    Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

    Giving up the right to “self” direction is extremely difficult (impossible?) apart from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

    Marriage is NOT meant to be “easy” and it’s not primarily about what I can get out of it. ,But, neither is it without it’s rewards…the greatest of these is in one day hearing “Well done, good and faithful servant…”

  13. @ Cane

    It is certainly not only about giving flowers–but then flowers are a means to an end and in this case Game and flowers converge upon the same end; Game is finding the right balance of masculine frame, charisma, and sweetness (read: beta) to attract and maintain a mate. There is not an aspect of game that per se is immoral; if one uses game for promiscuous banging, another for maintaining a christian marriage, how can the means be judged by opposing ends; if one uses a hammer to build a church and another to build a brothel, it is not the hammer that is judged but the builder (H/T Mentu @ UofMan).

  14. Willpower is a finite resource. We develop good habits so then we have to use less of our willpower to do the right thing..because the right thing becomes automatic aka habitual.

    At some point in our Christian walk when we have overcome our biggest vices and developed good habits God decides to up the ante a bit.. because He wants us to feel dependent on him.

    For someone struggling with depression just getting out of bed in the morning may require enormous faith in God. For someone who is highly disciplined and has all their ducks in a row and as the military likes to say “is squared away”… more will be required.

    So I figure if your marriage is awesome and your health is good and life is going swimmingly then that is a sign that you should give more..give from ones “need” rather than from ones extra. Go adopt some orphans or build a soup kitchen or something.

    I think that for a lot of us though just getting through the day without committing any serious sins is challenging enough.

    I don’t find marriage..or submission in particular..very easy at this stage. It takes quite a bit of will-power not to flip him the bird when I think he is being bossy. I probably need to hold off on adopting orphans.

  15. Life is hard for all of us sometimes Gabby, and I certainly struggle with the compulsion to sin and rebel against God. I never meant to imply otherwise. The question posed was about marriage, and I have entered into a season in my marriage where it isn’t nearly as hard as it used to be. That is all.

  16. Game is finding the right balance of masculine frame, charisma, and sweetness (read: beta) to attract and maintain a mate. There is not an aspect of game that per se is immoral;

    The Gentleman Poet,

    I have a question regarding your statements. First, I admit to being largely ignorant of what many bloggers refer to as “game”, so the word itself brings to my mind the idea of opposing sides and winners vs. losers. I am gathering it somehow refers to the activity related to the masculine side of a “romantic” relationship?

    What I’m wondering, is how you differentiate between the flowers given by a promiscuous man and those given by a spouse if the motivation is still ultimately to get something in return? If I came across an article written by a married woman who openly confessed to manipulating her husband by giving him what he wants–because he responds by buying her jewelry or clothing or taking her out more etc— I might appreciate her honesty, but can’t imagine applauding her selfishness. And I don’t think the pro-male bloggers I’ve read would let her off so easily, either.

    Is there a double standard involved in “game”, or am I misunderstanding your perspective?

    Thanks

  17. @Heather,

    Women are already playing Game. All of them, in fact. It is men who are finally waking up to this fact and learning how to exploit it. For the basic concept of Game, look up the word “Hypergamy”

  18. @ ar10308

    Thank you for giving me a bit of direction.
    I can accept the reality of a relatively universal tendency of women to marry into an equal or higher social class. Where does the “100% of all women” statistic originate? Maybe I’m wrongly injecting a negative connotation, but–assuming women just cannot help ourselves– what makes it acceptable for a man to exploit this trait?

  19. @Heather,
    The 100% is because it is a biological instinct.
    Exploitation is justified because Feminism, the sexual revolution and infiltration of women into the workplace allowed women to exploit it first. The current hook-up/slut culture is basically a result of unleashed Hypergamy. Also, the 50% divorce rate is a direct result of the unleashing of woman’s sexual nature from the controls that were built into society prior to then.

    However, knowledge of Game can also be used to strengthen a marriage because it takes into account a woman’s biological tendencies. Learning about these biological tendencies is commonly called “Taking the Red Pill” (The Matrix movie reference).
    See http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/

  20. @ar10308 & Heather

    I want to add that hypergamy–a woman’s desire for a superior* mate–is a pre-Fall design element. It wasn’t eating the fruit that caused this. Eating the fruit caused her to see man’s Good and Evil–and there was evil there, since he’d listened to his wife and eaten of the fruit, too.

    This caused a problem: How would the creature not designed to judge a man, but only submit to him, react to this new knowledge? History, especially the history of male-to-female relations, is but one long answer to that question.

    I myself was confused about this until the past few months, but I think it only makes sense this way.

    *Estimable might be a better word. From her moment her life began, she was to look-up to Adam.

  21. Cane,

    Your explanation helped a lot. It actually makes sense of the “biological” argument when viewed from that angle.

    ar10308,

    You said:

    If you set your marriage up for success by establishing a proper Biblical marriage authority dynamic, you will have a greater chance of succeeding.

    And I agree wholeheartedly. However, you also said:

    Exploitation is justified because Feminism, the sexual revolution and infiltration of women into the workplace allowed women to exploit it first.

    If I’m properly understanding your use of “exploitation”, I don’t see how the two can logically coexist. While most of us have been exposed to the fallout, not every woman consciously desires to march along to the feminist drum beat.
    How can the unqestionably evil self-worship of feminism justify male self-centeredness?
    Either the married couple chooses to conform to the Biblically mandated order (which necessarily requires selflessness from both parties) or they can adopt the suspicious, secularly framed attitude that (s)he is gonna burn me, so I’d better make sure I cover my tail.
    How does the second perspective seek to build a Christ-centered relationship, cultivate godliness in an individual, or encourage one’s spouse to fully accept the responsibility which accompanies the gender-specific role God has designated?

  22. @Heather,
    What is fascinating is that exploiting a woman’s biology (acting in a way towards her that take her nature into account) and a setting up a Biblical marriage look identical.
    It isn’t male self-centeredness. It is Game.

    “How does the second perspective seek to build a Christ-centered relationship, cultivate godliness in an individual, or encourage one’s spouse to fully accept the responsibility which accompanies the gender-specific role God has designated?”
    Because it allows the man to take the Biblical place of leadership in the marriage and lead his wife in the most effective way possible. It takes into account her nature and the areas where she is most likely to fail.

    Did you read the Red Pill link I posted?

  23. ar10308,

    Thank you for defining what you mean by “exploit”. My mind went to the commonly understood usage (as in “exploitation” of the inherent vulnerability of a young child, or other disadvantaged individual, for personal gain).

    It is my intention to read your link, but have not done so yet, as I was hoping you would give me a bit more insight into your perspective first. There seems to be a lot of referencing of other people’s opinions and supposed expertise on both sides of the feminist/anti feminist discussion, and it’s nice when someone will actually engage as an individual and be able to articulate a personal understanding of their views. It is especially interesting to hear the ideas of unmarried individuals on the way marriage (biblical or otherwise) ought to work.

    This is not so different from the way individual Christians should be able to adequately explain what and why we believe. If nothing else, it particularly lends credibility to the individual Christian anti-feminist’s argument when he will take the time to respond patiently to sincere questions without resorting to parroting another individual’s views or spewing profanity-laced insults.

    I appreciate the interaction thus far. Thanks for your time.

  24. @Heather,
    There is a reason I linked you to Athol and that is because his expertise is far greater than mine.

    I don’t mean to outsource my opinion, I just want to give the same source I used to learn the concepts.

  25. Well this became an interesting repartee while I was away.

    @ Heather

    To hit on your original question on manipulation. Manipulation is involved in every action that occurs between multiple parties–sometimes even with oneself. Manipulation in this example is about a positive outcome, a good marriage.

    How does the second perspective seek to build a Christ-centered relationship. . .

    You should check out Simon Grey’s response to Cane’s original post at Darlock’s: http://cygne-gris.blogspot.com/2012/08/god-and-game.html (@Cane: You should too)

  26. Thanks for responding, ar10308 and The Gentleman Poet.

    I don’t mean to outsource my opinion, I just want to give the same source I used to learn the concepts.

    No worries then. I did check a few of Mr. Kay’s articles, and the link offered by TGP. Appreciate the opportunity to go to the source.
    While I can accept that some of what he says is true, I cannot ignore the fact that he claims to be an atheist (former Christian). What this indicates to me is that although his principles may at times coincide with and even directly borrow from Scriptural teaching, he, at base, neither recognizes nor desires to honor Christ with his teaching. Instead, he has amputated marriage, and male/female roles and relationship from it’s intended foundation and made the shadow a central focus. His advice looks a lot like “this is all about my long-term happiness and the mileage I can get out of this marriage experience”
    Is that not the essence of idolatry?
    While I recognize the Apostle’s instruction to examine all things and hold fast to that which is good, Isaiah 8:19 poses the question “Should not a people inquire of their God?” If you are not a believer, then obviously this wouldn’t matter to you. But, wouldn’t a Christian be better served by directly seeking God’s instruction and avoiding the very real danger of taking advice from someone who has admitted to rejecting Him?

    Manipulation is involved in every action that occurs between multiple parties–sometimes even with oneself. Manipulation in this example is about a positive outcome, a good marriage.

    You may be correct, if manipulation can be considered to be open and honest communication through a husband’s decision-making and management of situations through solid leadership. If it’s mainly about playing off of your wife’s emotions and needs in order to keep the peace, I’m not so sure.

    I think I’ve got plenty of new info to chew on for now.
    Thanks again for the discussion guys.

  27. My friend Heather is on to something here, and I think it strikes at the heart of why I, and Cane, and now she, has grave reservations about Christian men putting so much stock in game as a means to achieve a healthy Christian marriage. Being Word directed as she is, I am not all surprised by the conclusion she has reached.

    As Cane noted in today’s post, there is a more godly way to address to problem of the crisis in marriages that has been made worse by the encroaching of feminism into the church. Scripture does indeed address many of these issues. Is the problem that it just isn’t sexy enough to dig through Scriptures and study and learn the way to develop frame from the right source? I dare say that may be it.

    (CC: I think so. Not only do I think scripture is sufficient, but that it is overwhelming.

  28. Thanks Elspeth.

    ar10308,

    I do recognize the corruption which is rampant in mainstream Christianity.
    Please note I did not suggest consulting “the church”, but rather God Himself. This is the Biblical directive. James echos the instruction. His solution to a lack of wisdom is to ask God, who gives generously and without reproach–but warns seekers to expect nothing in response to unbelieving, selfish requests. (1:5-8)

    The scripture refs are included as evidence of the soundness of my position, not an attempt to preach at you. There is indeed some worthwhile stuff to consider, here, and I’m happy to be able to consult my own husband on the aspects that continue to cause concern.

  29. @Heather,
    Sorry, that doesn’t work. That isn’t going get a girl in church to agree to go out to coffee with you.

    What I see developing from Heather and Elspeth is the Sunday School answer of “Jesus, God and The Bible!” Of course you both have the luxury of being married to men with Natural Frame and have no idea what is like to be a guy raised by his parents and church to completely LACK it. All I hear is 2 hamsters saying “Men should just be themselves!”

    You pray, but you must also post a guard like was done in the Old Testament. (Nehemiah 4:9)
    Or like I was told while playing baseball in middle school; “Not even God can help you if you don’t swing the bat.”

  30. I wish I could edit the previous comment to add: If Scripture is sooo overwhelming, why don’t you post the relevant verses that show practical steps a person can develop to develop this Frame??

  31. What I see developing from Heather and Elspeth is the Sunday School answer of “Jesus, God and The Bible!” Of course you both have the luxury of being married to men with Natural Frame and have no idea what is like to be a guy raised by his parents and church to completely LACK it. All I hear is 2 hamsters saying “Men should just be themselves!”

    Um, no. If I told you the story of how I came to be with my husband and our road to the altar you’d know full well that while I’m sure I have a rationalization hamster, it’s not at play here. Trust me on that.

    I for one, do not advocate that any person just “be themselves”. We should all be working to be more fully what God intends for us to be. I fully believe that men should develop an internal frame based on the truth of God’s word which deals with the nature of both men and women in great detail. It has a bit to say about sex too. Heather’s opening comment just scratches the surface.

    I have to run now, but when I return, I will add a few Scripture references to get you started. They really are there, 🙂 .

  32. @Elspeth,
    About time you agree to put up.

    And you better be rather explicit in interpreting it in how it will help a man become better with women.

  33. Sorry, that doesn’t work. That isn’t going get a girl in church to agree to go out to coffee with you.

    ar10308,

    I didn’t write from ignorance. Before we met, my husband had set aside the idea of aggressively pursuing a relationship when he realized how frustrating it can be to try to find “the right woman”. He believed that his focus should be along the lines of:
    Psalm 37:4-5 Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.
    Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him, and he will act.

    The goal was no longer “bag a bride”, but in becoming a man with god-pleasing character. And, he trusted that as he submitted his will to that of God, then he would be happy with whatever God decided. It was only after he made that commitment that we met, and even then, it took us awhile to co-ordinate with God’s plan.

    It did “work” in our case.

    I second Elspeth’s statement I fully believe that men should develop an internal frame based on the truth of God’s word which deals with the nature of both men and women in great detail.

    The verses I quoted above are a good starting place regardless of gender. The first 11 verses of Psalm 37 are actually very instructional,http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2037&version=NASB
    as is James 4
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%204&version=NASB

    These refs are primarily about attitude. But they have been very helpful in our marriage as the vertical relationship (or lack of) directly and profoundly impacts the quality of human interaction.

  34. ar10308:

    Proverbs 6 warns the young man about being taken in by a woman’s beauty.

    I linked to it for you. In fact, Proverbs discusses the problem of getting involved with the wrong woman a great deal. I’m not going to do your homework for you. If you’re sincerely interested in squaring Scripture with your mission to find a bride, you’ll be willing to do the work.

    Jezebel and Ahab’s story is very instructive for the Christian husband. There is a lot there for the Christian husband to draw on without relying on game.

    Of course, what you’re looking for is instruction on how to get the average Christian girl’s attention, and the Bible only offers instruction on being a man of solid character who is unmoved by anything or anyone that might hinder him from being about anything but what God has called him to. Focusing on that, and being your best regardless of whether some woman notices, is attractive in ways you do not begin to realize.

    I think the biggest problem I have with Christian game is that it requires a young man to take his mind off of the matter of most importance, and women can sense desperation. Heather said something very important with regard to her husband Craig and I think you ignore it at your peril.

    The other thing is that your average Christian young woman today is quite different from me (who married at 22) and Heather, who if I recall was even quite a bit younger than that when she married. I wouldn’t use myself as any kind of example of how to land a good husband, but she’s a good example, :).

    The bottom line is one that I have repeated throughout this conversation. Whether or not Cane, or my husband, or Heather’s has natural frame is beside the point. Your job in my opinion, is to work on developing your own frame based on adherence to the Biblical standard of strong manhood, which is valuable in any endeavor including finding a wife. Focusing on game, with its emphasis solely on attracting a woman, is an incomplete and inadequate way to go in my opinion.

  35. And you better be rather explicit in interpreting it in how it will help a man become better with women.

    Okay: Here it is. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don’t be manipulated by a woman’s beauty or her emotions. Don’t shy away from being honest and respectfully speaking truth simply because you don’t want to make her feel bad. Maybe she needs to feel bad.

    Take care of your health. Be diligent at whatever kind of work you put your hands to do so that you are prepared to take a wife.

    All of these are Biblical, and I am willing to bet that the first paragraph is where most men fall woefully short.

  36. Because they don’t have the frame to do what I (actually my husband) suggested in the first paragraph, they turned to a contrived set of behaviors to achieve what they could on their own and with God’s help if they weren’t so afraid of being rejected.

    We human beings do love formulaic solutions, don’t we?

  37. I wouldn’t use myself as any kind of example of how to land a good husband, but she’s a good example,

    We did meet in church. I was almost 17. barely 19 the day we wed, incredibly immature and self-centered, at the time. We’ve had to learn a lot together about submission and leadership. But I do have a gem of a husband who was determined to finish growing up right alongside.

  38. I knew you had to very young because you’ve been married longer than my 18 years, and you’re younger than me.

    You are a good example, Heather.

  39. Heather, I just went and checked out what I thought was Craig’s abandoned blog, and he’s updated in the past couple of months. I had no idea you guys celebrated your 20th anniversary on my very birthday. Happy Anniversary, 2 months late.

    And now, I shall stop derailing Cane’s blog. I’m just interested ton know if ar10308 has had a chance to see my comments and scriptures. I guess I should check the little box below to get the follow-ups via email.

    Night, all.

  40. “Here it is. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don’t be manipulated by a woman’s beauty or her emotions. Don’t shy away from being honest and respectfully speaking truth simply because you don’t want to make her feel bad. Maybe she needs to feel bad.”

    That is advice I have ONLY ever heard from Game. Any time a pastor or counselor preached on a woman’s fleeting beauty, it was in context of marrying a woman you don’t find attractive and to Blue-Pill it up.

    Again, Game continues to teach me more about the nature of women and the true meaning of those verses in the Scripture. Game is the lessons of those verses boiled down. Plain and simple.

    “Your job in my opinion, is to work on developing your own frame based on adherence to the Biblical standard of strong manhood, which is valuable in any endeavor including finding a wife”
    What do you think I’ve been doing the past 10 years?

    Oh, and I’m 28 and both of you haven’t had to search for a spouse in nearly 20years, so go see Dalrock’s posts on the state of Churchian women today. I won’t be marrying some Churchian EAP, but when I do find the right young woman (20-24 is the age range I will consider), I want to have my frame down and the only way to do that is to use Game to interact with women and build my confidence while doing it. If I’m nervous and stutter when I chat-up the redheaded 6 behind the counter at Chipotle and attempt to close for her number, how am I going to suddenly have a perfect, impenetrable frame and think clearly when I meet the woman I am supposed to marry?

    Meanwhile, CC’s of the world tell me I don’t need Game while they have been using it their entire lives to get everything they want and more. Do you have any idea how deeply livid this makes individuals in my situation?

    Oh. I suppose there is this:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/relationship-advice-from-a-supermodel/

    CR Maxim #57: Never trust a woman’s advice on how to please women. Her advice is designed for alpha men she already finds attractive and from whom she seeks signals of attainability and commitment.

    Corollary to Maxim #57: A woman’s sex and relationship advice isn’t meant to help men; it’s meant to distract men from what really works to turn women on.

  41. That is advice I have ONLY ever heard from Game. Any time a pastor or counselor preached on a woman’s fleeting beauty, it was in context of marrying a woman you don’t find attractive and to Blue-Pill it up.

    As I don’t know you, I have no clue how many sermons you’ve actually heard on this topic. But Proverbs 31 is far more instructive than that, even though it does place emphasis on the importance not of accepting fleeting beauty, but lasting godliness. Hearing a sermon on the subject is not a substitute for personal study.

    Game is the lessons of those verses boiled down.

    Minus the point of the verses, which is to ultimately please God rather than self. Masculine “game” (according to Mr. Kay’s site) really boils down to being the humanistic counterbalance to feminism. It’s about posturing and using another individual in order to get a better deal for almighty self. That runs counter to what Scripture teaches.

    Oh, and I’m 28 and both of you haven’t had to search for a spouse in nearly 20years…

    It IS hard for men especially, in our culture. I don’t pretend to be totally unconcerned for my own son. But quality women do exist. The recent choices of two young men from our congregation testify to this.

    If history and the Epistles are an indication, Christian men (and women) today are faced with exactly the same personal obstacles as they were from the beginning. Although, perhaps the imminent threat of torture and death would go a long way to “cleanse the Temple”, leaving only those who are willing to literally die for our claims of faith.

    The “supermodel” tips are ridiculous, but not surprising since the entire entertainment industry is built on surface presentation. No man should be guilted for stepping away from that.

    Meanwhile, CC’s of the world tell me I don’t need Game while they have been using it their entire lives to get everything they want and more.

    Not gonna speak on his behalf, but my understanding of what he said looks more like conviction of the Spirit regarding a tendency toward self-serving interaction which he had not recognized before. He doesn’t appear to condone such behavior. So, assuming there is no misunderstanding on my part, that is not a sign of male weakness or hypocrisy. But rather, humility before God and a desire to do right regardless of the circumstances.

  42. That is advice I have ONLY ever heard from Game. Any time a pastor or counselor preached on a woman’s fleeting beauty, it was in context of marrying a woman you don’t find attractive and to Blue-Pill it up.

    I can honestly say that I have never had the misfortune of hearing a preacher telling a man to marry a woman he’s not attracted to. I’ve read a couple of articles on boundless where young men were chastised for not being attracted to overweight women, but I didn’t agree with that.

    Nevertheless, if there’s one thing I have learned from my time in the male-centered blogosphere, even the Christian male centered blogosphere, it’s that an unhealthy and unrealistic standard for what is considered attractive in the average woman has taken root. I’m not accusing you of that, but some of what I have read borders on ridiculous. Prayerfully ask God to help be careful not to write off a good, reasonably pretty, fit, godly girl because you have ingested too much media and manosphere to consider her because her nose is half a centimeter off-center, LOL.

    Oh, and I’m 28 and both of you haven’t had to search for a spouse in nearly 20years, so go see Dalrock’s posts on the state of Churchian women today. I won’t be marrying some Churchian EAP, but when I do find the right young woman (20-24 is the age range I will consider), I want to have my frame down and the only way to do that is to use Game to interact with women and build my confidence while doing it.

    I am fully acquainted with both Dalrock’s and Bskillet’s analysis of the modern Christian woman in many churches. I don’t disagree with them really, but that’s because I live in a fairly large city and the offerings I’ve seen not only for young men but for my own daughters can create a pessimistic outlook if not for my faith that God’s will shall be done in their lives if they allow it.

    However, I think it may be a little better in heather’s part of the country and in her congregation in particular. Nevertheless, I agree with her that there really is nothing new under the sun. While the advent and mainstreaming of feminism coupled with a watering down of Scriptural directives on family order have made things more of a challenge, what is required of us has not changed.

  43. However, I think it may be a little better in heather’s part of the country and in her congregation in particular.

    We have a wonderful group. But, it’s pretty small. Small town, too.
    The aforementioned wives are not locals. Neither were the husbands of a pair of quality young women from our group who married a few years ago. The thing that has impressed me with all of these young people is that they were all focused mainly on being the kind of person that pleases God first–and God is the one who brought them an appropriate spouse.

    Finding a good life-mate is not impossible. And, even those marriages which have had a rough start are not beyond hope.

    Thank you, Elspeth for the happy wishes :).

    And thanks, Cane, for allowing my repeat commentary.

    Moving on.

  44. “Prayerfully ask God to help be careful not to write off a good, reasonably pretty, fit, godly girl because you have ingested too much media and manosphere to consider her because her nose is half a centimeter off-center,”

    Most of the girls who I’ve wanted to date and had a reasonable chance of attaining over the years haven’t been above 7s and most would be 6s. And I found most of them attractive. Some were a little more robust of figure, but not obese, which is completely fine (I’m a bigger guy, 6’2″, 225lbs, currently very fit). A number of them showed strong IOIs for quite some time. None were out of my league. What happened in all of these cases was that I had pedestalized them through my actions and completely turned them off to me.

    “write off a good, reasonably pretty, fit, godly girl”
    Currently, that is impossible. There are none in my social sphere.

  45. I’ve noticed all the most marriage worthy women I know are very introverted and therefore not in anyone’s “social sphere”…unless you count the Church knitting circle.

    Many of them will be cat ladies simply because they are too shy to get themselves seen by a suitable man.

  46. @GabbyG
    FWIW, my social sphere is from my church, which isn’t a megachurch or very Churchian. It is smaller (60 person) church plant that was started a few years ago. There are 2 single women who are of marriagable age. One is unfortunately unattratractive to the point where she doesn’t pass the arousel test for me. The other is a Former/(probably)Current Slut who I won’t even converse with. The only alternatives in my area are to go to Churchian churches.

    I also do Crossfit which is a more social gym scenario, however nearly all the women there are with their significant others and the ones who aren’t are unbelievably hypergamous. So, that won’t do.

    The final social sphere I am working on is that of my Swing Dance class (tried it out the end of last month, and signed up for the class). Every Friday night they have a social dance and the basic rule is that if someone asks you to dance, you dance. That makes dancing with several dozen women each night very easy and erases any kind of approach anxiety. It’s great because I get to work on the initial opening conversation a dozen or so times while I’m already touching and leading them physically.

  47. Pingback: Linkage Is Good For You 8.26.12 | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

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