Dark Scripture: Ignore the TSA

Prologue: This post was originally a comment over at Sunshinemary’s very good blog, The Woman and the Dragon. The post itself was about a young couple who were struggling with traditional husband and wife roles; particularly the frequency of sex. At some point, it transformed into a bit of an intervention on how to get me to realize the usefulness of Game, and how I’m in denial about my use of it in my own life; after revealing some spots of serious trouble. During the rising action of the confrontation, Sunshinemary threw out (as an aside) that she didn’t know what a Neg is, or Push/Pull. I used that as a springboard for an overall statement on my thoughts on Game (though I confess I didn’t intend this when I started it). We pick up at the climax of the conversation with me defining the “Neg”.

“Neg” and “push-pull” are somewhat related, in their intents. In a further demonstration of the depths of my hypocrisy, the easiest way to explain the Neg is by example.

Yesterday, going through security at the airport, the screener was a young pretty Puerto Rican girl with crazy long eye-lashes. In an attempt to make my day less oppressive (because I HATE the TSA, airports, and my platinum status), I said, “Those are some serious eyelashes you’ve got there.”

That was a Neg. And she responded as a PUA would predict: by proving herself. Suddenly she’s not bored by checking my ID, but looking at me–half-shocked and half-pleased–and saying, “They’re real! I wouldn’t wear fake lashes!”, as she mindlessly scribbles on my ticket. All thoughts of me being a potential bomber have flown. If I had said, “I like your eyelashes”, she would have offered a self-satisfied “Thanks” without ever looking up.

Of course, as soon as I got my ticket back, I thought: Crap. I just Gamed her., but it never even occurred to me in the process. I was just trying to not hate being at the airport. Again, it’s not that Game doesn’t work. That’s not the question. It is this: Is this something that most Christian men should be studying? And if it is, is reading PUAs the right way to go about learning it?

I know: to the sexually frustrated men of the world I sound like the biggest sonuvabitch. What other reason can there be for me to argue against Game–which is what they see when I describe what I do–except to conclude that I’m trying to keep other men from being successful? We’ll come back to this.

If Game means simply the list of tools: 1) Neg (tease), 2) Push-Pull (busy now, call you later), 3) Kino(escalation in touch, duration of touch, and meaning of touch) 4) Passing Fitness Tests (ignore, deride humorously, amplify to absurdity) then I don’t really have a problem with it.

BUT! Successful Game-users will tell you that you can’t just follow a checklist, you have to make it your Frame. What do they mean?

If Game is about building “Frame” (sometimes called Impenetrable Frame), then we ought to know what we mean by “Frame”. “Frame” is short for “Frame of Reference”. In other words, from what point of view do you hear comments, make comments, and take action? It’s a question of who is the author of that reference. If it’s biology–as Game says–then do whatever is biologically sound; whatever it permits. If our frame of reference is scripture as the Word of God, then we ought to be looking from scripture’s perspective whenever we have a question of the Author about what we should say or do.

Now:

1. It’s been said on here that I have natural Impenetrable Frame. It’s taken as a given that my sexual “success” with women is proof of that Frame.

2. I’ve said that whatever Frame I have is because of the discipline I received growing up; very much including reading and memorizing scripture. In turn, I suggest that others start reading and memorizing scriptures; that the frame will grow out of this.

3. I am implicated as a idiot-savant (at best), and a Dark Game-using* liar (at worst); when I say it’s scripture that set my frame.** It’s said to me that scripture won’t get you there. It’s further retorted to me that–according to the deep reading into the psychology of my writing–that what I actually did was employ Game, but I just can’t see it. This is credited to either my blinding stupidity, or my guilty cheating heart, or both.

To return to the long-eyelash girl: The truth of the matter is that–if you read the Bible–you’ll learn that allowing yourself to be charmed by a woman’s beauty can be a ruinous path. You’ll also learn that women aren’t supposed to be flaunting their beauty. If a woman is doing so, this is a sign of bad character, and other ungodly behavior. You must balance this with the idea that beauty is real, and itself godly. The way forward is to notice the beauty of the world, but not be beguiled by it because earthly beauty is fleeting. It’s godly beauty that is truly worthy of praise. So, the Bible-reading man who notices a particularly beautiful woman says to himself: “Now, there’s something.” If saying it aloud to the possessor of beautiful eyelashes, you might say it as: “Those are some serious eyelashes you’ve got there.”

OR, you could read Roissy’s Sixteen Commandments of Poon. Number Ten is “Ignore her beauty”. Without even reading past the rule to the whole definition, the superiority of the scriptural method reveals itself. Whatever truth is in the definition is–at best–incomplete, because ignoring a woman’s beauty is to miss something wonderful. But let’s take a look at that commandment’s definition:

The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t fucking. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women if you don’t want to regress). Soon, a Jedi lover you will be.

Did you catch that? Let me translate: To see beyond the outer beauty of any given female, you must sleep with MANY attractive women. Does this sound anything but immoral to anyone? (I don’t want to hear “Dark Game”*.) What Roissy and scripture agree on is that you can’t just say to yourself, mantra-like: Ignore her beauty. Ignore her beauty. Ignore her beauty. You’ve got to have a reason to actually believe it. You must be saying this to yourself reflexively, automatically. If you don’t, you can’t count on saying the right thing to the girl at the right time. Scripture says we do this by having good order; by observing everything in its place. Roissy says to do this by dashing your preconceptions about beauty on the boulders of many attractive, promiscuous, women.

The great thing about using Roissy’s Commandment Ten as an example is that this one is almost universally touted as being essentially Christian in spirit and practice. It’s not me who hasn’t been thinking seriously about Game, and it’s not Roissy either.

Plus, now you know why I picked this blog’s title.

*How does an amoral set of tools, or even some subset of those tools, acquire the modifier “Dark”? What sense does Dark Game make, when Game is amoral? Biology is the author of Game, and biology is amoral; so all Game is therefore amoral, and so by definition cannot be Dark. After all, Game takes it as a given that men are by nature polygynous; so really we have to say that cheating is just an amoral biological function, and that it is scripture which is transgressing on biology’s innocent, amoral, tools.

**Has it occurred to anyone that the best PUAs currently in the Game world are either current or former Christians (Roissy, Rollo, Mentu, ThePrivateMan, the list goes on…) with more than a passing knowledge of scripture? Why do we attribute their success to palm-reading tricks instead of the power of God’s word; even in the hands of sinners? Furthermore: Has it occurred to anyone that a person could read scripture and then use it to seduce; that there are plenty of women out there who get turned on by the idea of the Son of the Preacher Man? Call it: Dark Scripture.

Advertisements

112 thoughts on “Dark Scripture: Ignore the TSA

  1. I think I understand and agree with the following points:

    – Scripture probably underwrites some of my own “frame”.

    – And I certainly agree that a man can have good “game” just from learning from dealing with his wife, his daughters and his mother. I don’t believe a man has to have bedded a lot of women to be good at dealing with women. I certainly haven’t, so I hope you don’t. It is a skill, dealing with women, and I think I am good at it in real life, without being a “tryhard”.

    I don’t try it much on women in public, not being the flirtatious type, but occasionally I have put on the old Irish charm and that can work well. A little gentle teasing, for example.

  2. Couple of thoughts:

    You’ll also learn that women aren’t supposed to be flaunting their beauty. If a woman is doing so, this is a sign of bad character, and other ungodly behavior.

    -One man’s “flaunt” is another man’s “fixing herself up”. You read my blog so you know I’ve grown weary with and abandoned my participation in the modesty brigade, largely because my husband in very precise about what he likes and I had to choose whom I would submit to.

    Of course, as soon as I got my ticket back, I thought: Crap. I just Gamed her., but it never even occurred to me in the process.

    -Again, if it’s second nature to you, is it game? I could totally see my husband doing something like this and he had no idea that these behaviors were a part of some “handbook of game” until he encountered the idea quite recently via some conversations the guys were having at work which spilled over into our conversations at home.

    -My father, as great a father as he was, was…um… something in his day, LOL. Since he’s 81, I am fairly confident that game wasn’t a part of his repertoire when he met my late mother, during the years he dated after her death, or even when he married my stepmother 3 decades ago.

    The relevant question is this: Should a man who has a natural way with women make it his aim to purposely crucify this part of his personality because it’s a character flaw and a sin?

    That’s a very different question from whether or not a Christian man should be purposely attempting to build a set of tools and strategies with the express aim of wooing women, including his own wife, for the purpose of extracting the submission and sexual satisfaction she is supposed to giving him as a part of her calling as a Christian wife.

  3. You’re listening to the right man, I think. There are, of course, logical boundaries to this thinking. A Christian husband who asks his wife to go about town naked is in error. And it’s possible for the man to be in error here, but not the wife, even though she’s doing as he asks. If his goal is to tempt other men into lusting after his wife: That’s bad. Lastly, NAHusbandsALT.

    The relevant question is this: Should a man who has a natural way with women make it his aim to purposely crucify this part of his personality because it’s a character flaw and a sin?

    No, I don’t think so. I only groaned at myself (my thought: “Crap. I just Gamed her.”) because I’ve been thinking about this topic so much recently. For good or bad: I tell myself jokes.

  4. Cane wrote:

    This is credited to either my blinding stupidity, or my guilty cheating heart, or both.

    Well, since you are obviously not stupid, I would have to say it’s the second one. 😉

    Elspeth wrote:

    That’s a very different question from whether or not a Christian man should be purposely attempting to build a set of tools and strategies with the express aim of wooing women, including his own wife, for the purpose of extracting the submission and sexual satisfaction

    I weighed in on the “Is game a good way to get submission” idea at Dalrock the other day. I’m going to copy my comment here:

    See, I think it’s important to understand if game/masculine frame really does affect submission or not, since one of the proposed applications of game for the married Christian man is to get his wife to submit to him. But I am uncertain if that can work. Submission is a serious act of obedience to God on a woman’s part. I’m not talking about “playing submission.” I love to play submission, of course – that’s when you get to make a big deal about checking in with your husband and asking his permission, and it makes you both feel just so cozy because he gets to feel in charge and she gets to feel like she’s such a good and submissive wife. There is nothing wrong with this highly-enjoyable dynamic, and I think game will be a good tool for eliciting this “submission lite”. But it’s not the real deal. In order for it to be submission, we have to think you are wrong but still obey you anyway. But I might be overly-personalizing this, since after a two-day debate I just got a direct order that I do not want to follow, but I have to grit my teeth and do it anyway. With a nicer attitude than I currently have. If game, which I think my husband has, is supposed to make submission easy, why do I still have such a crappy attitude? I should be joyful skipping along to do his bidding if game is the answer.

    I don’t think Game will elicit true submission. I do think it will get a man some submission-lite and a very sexually available wife.

  5. @sunshinemary

    I think we’re on the same page. The feminized Christian man has two choices, as I see it, to establish his Frame:

    1) The scientism philosophy of Game.
    As with all science, this will require a lot of experimentation with a lot women. For it to be effective, those experiments must include seducing and banging sluts. This presents a host of problems, aside from the obvious sins.

    2) The theology of Marriage
    This will require a lot of reading, prayer, and submission to God’s will. For it to be effective, you have to keep reading it, and keep praying. However; this presents a host of benefits, aside from the obvious problem of overcoming your doubt that God will give you what you if you seek Him first.

  6. You’re listening to the right man, I think. There are, of course, logical boundaries to this thinking. A Christian husband who asks his wife to go about town naked is in error. And it’s possible for the man to be in error here, but not the wife, even though she’s doing as he asks.

    No, SAM isn’t asking me to go about town naked, LOL. And no, he isn’t trying to incite lust in other men. He does however, firmly believe that he shouldn’t have to wait for the bedroom door to shut at 10 PM before he is allowed to admire my physical femininity, which is what many of the modesty police force preach. I’ll offer an example:

    I don’t often wear jeans. This is not because of any conviction on my part, it’s just that I’ve found that pear shaped women no matter how fit (and I work hard to stay fit) simply look better in dresses and skirts. He appreciates the femininity represented by the skirts, but occasionally prefers to see me in a nice fitting pair of jeans.

    A few years ago I bought a pair, and the minute he saw me in them he said, “Those are too big. Take them back and get the next smaller size.” The next smaller size wasn’t outrageously tight (I could breathe, LOL), and I really didn’t mind wearing it, but at the time I was neck high in books and blog posts about modesty so I immediately wondered if this would be okay.

    There comes a point when you have to pick a side and I decided that a pair of jeans or my bare upper arms (SAM like sundresses) wasn’t really immodest, that I was more concerned with conforming to a religious dress code than I was with being truly modest anyway, and I submitted from the heart. Life is much easier, as is shopping, LOL.

  7. @ Sunshine Mary:

    In order for it to be submission, we have to think you are wrong but still obey you anyway.

    I don’t think you’re over personalizing. This is just the truth.

    I also fully agree with you. I don’t think any game technique can elicit true submission and it’s one of the reasons I have concern about putting too much stock in it. Like you. I don’t always fond submission easy or pleasurable, but I do it out of obedience to God rather in response to my husband’s tight “game.”

    To be honest however, his frame and confidence do make for a lot less ambiguity, and creates a sense of safety and security that I don’t think would be present with a more pliable husband.

  8. Good grief, Elspeth…Jeans are your modesty conundrum? When I read your post (which I didn’t comment on because you got all the important parts right, and I would only introduce confusion) the clothes I had in mind were of the 3 variety: shirts cut low enough to show three inches of cleavage; mini-skirts no more than 3 inches below the butt; shoes no less that 3 inches in height.

    You know: church clothes; as worn by women wishing to express the actual trinity of their actual beliefs.

    Your husband is blessed.

  9. the clothes I had in mind were of the 3 variety: shirts cut low enough to show three inches of cleavage; mini-skirts no more than 3 inches below the butt; shoes no less that 3 inches in height.

    Oh, heavens no! He simply likes the clothes to fit well, (especially up top), not hiding my curves beneath shapeless matronly fabrics designed to obscure any attractive feminine characteristics. And while yes, I do wear heels more often than the average woman, I don’t wear stilettos and what not.

    You fail to recognize how rare it is for a woman to get dressed anymore, and how alarming other women find it when you consistently look nice. It’s threatening to religious, married women in particular who wonder why you’re putting in all that effort. Certainly not for your own husband!

    When you pair that with the modesty police and their insistence that anything that enhances beauty is a sin for Christian women, it can create quite a conflict for women who are sincerely concerned with finding the balance between honoring their husbands and honoring God when they get dressed.

    When I was a young wife and mother, this was more of an issue for me, but as I said, simply following my husband’s direction has proved quite freeing. It still doesn’t stop people from asking me at least once a week why I’m so “dressed up.”

  10. @Elspeth
    “I don’t think any game technique can elicit true submission”

    Give that hamster a break, lady!
    Game/Frame elicits respect, respect elicits submission. Ta-da!

    @CC
    “2) The theology of Marriage
    This will require a lot of reading, prayer, and submission to God’s will. For it to be effective, you have to keep reading it, and keep praying. However; this presents a host of benefits, aside from the obvious problem of overcoming your doubt that God will give you what you if you seek Him first.”

    Spoken by a dude with Natural Frame who continues to lack empathy for those who don’t have that Frame. Sorry, but I’ve done the reading. I’ve prayed the prayers. It doesn’t teach a man how to bolster his confidence and abilities with women and it definitely doesn’t expedite the process. Game does.

    Did you notice how you had to know the Game technique before the Scripture became clear in it’s meaning? That means you have to have the answer key before you can understand the test questions.

    As I posted in my other comment, not even God can give you a base hit if you don’t swing the bat. Game at least let’s you know where the batter’s box is.

  11. Elspeth asked:

    The relevant question is this: Should a man who has a natural way with women make it his aim to purposely crucify this part of his personality because it’s a character flaw and a sin?

    And Cane replied:

    No, I don’t think so. I only groaned at myself (my thought: “Crap. I just Gamed her.”) because I’ve been thinking about this topic so much recently. For good or bad: I tell myself jokes.

    Cane, I think your answer to Elspeth’s question was too pat and also tinged with a bit of selfish pride. Clearly you have a way with women and just want to harness it so you can enjoy dabbling with it without causing trouble in your marriage. You relate what you said to eye-lash girl and you state that you could have just said, “Nice eyelashes.” What you rather tellingly didn’t state was the third option – to notice her beauty but say nothing.

    I am pretty adept at spotting this. I am married to someone whose natural frame is very similar to yours. He had to learn to crucify this trait after coming to Christ because it caused him to be too tempted to sin. However, he went over-board in his attempt to the point where it affected my attraction to him. He had to learn to turn it ON with me and OFF with other women. That is a difficult, difficult thing to do. You are just trying to turn it on with other women a little bit.

    However, you are still turning it on with other women. Be careful. You might think you are the rider when in reality you are the horse.

    Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

  12. Elspeth, I imagine your husband takes you to a fairly serious church, where the issues you and I respectively run into are quite different.

    Small quibble: I certainly DO recognize the failure of women to get properly dressed. Remember, madame, I have Platinum status with American Airlines. That means for at least 50,000 miles a year, I get to see pony-tailed women in sweats, pajamas, and make-up that can’t possibly make up for the rest that is missing.

  13. ar10308 said: Spoken by a dude with Natural Frame who continues to lack empathy

    I don’t know what else to say except that you misunderstand me.

    Did you notice how you had to know the Game technique before the Scripture became clear in it’s meaning? That means you have to have the answer key before you can understand the test questions.

    Did you notice how the answer is to have the answer key before you start the test questions? Did you notice how eerily similar that is to what I’ve said?

    If the biomechanics of sex and attraction are the test, then Game is your answer key.

    I’m telling you that you’re trying to pass the wrong fucking (italicized for emphasis on meaning) test. Until you get that mindset, you won’t be aided by Game, or scripture. This is the question that Roissy answered for himself at some point, and he said: No, I will go a different way.

    You need to Read. Your. Scripture.

    Matthew 6:25

    “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

    THIS WAS WRITTEN TO YOU, BY GOD, FOR YOUR INSTRUCTION AND EDIFICATION. This is a foundational faith statement–foundational for all Christians in every station of life. Yes, this applies to your desire for sex, and married life, too. Until we get that, we won’t get anything we really need.

  14. I don’t think I am filtering it through that. I think that I am just responding to what you said. Deny it if I am wrong, and I will accept it and apologize to you for misreading what you wrote.

  15. I did not think of picking up that girl, and then settle on merely flirting with her. I wasn’t even trying to flirt with her. As I said: I hate the TSA, and I wanted to not hate being at the airport, so I passed the time by being friendly. If it had been a man with muscled arms, I would have said: “Whoa, did you get bit by something? You’re all swollen up.”

    Just so we’re clear: I wouldn’t unknowingly be tempted to ravish him.

    Again: Don’t filter me through the lens of your husband.

    You’re reading too much into the situation; some of which is because you have too little information about the situation as a whole; including all my thoughts–which I can neither fully recall, nor is there space to write, nor is there time to read.

  16. “THIS WAS WRITTEN TO YOU, BY GOD, FOR YOUR INSTRUCTION AND EDIFICATION. This is a foundational faith statement–foundational for all Christians in every station of life. Yes, this applies to your desire for sex, and married life, too. Until we get that, we won’t get anything we really need.”

    Is that how you found and married your wife? Waiting around? Not being proactive? Not improving yourself? Being passive?

  17. @ar10308

    Never mistake weakness or grace, for accomplishment.

    I don’t think you understand that you’re making an illogical and contradictory argument. You’re saying that I earned what I got by my alpha status. You’re also saying that I didn’t earn it because I’m a natural alpha. This is a hopeless Frame for the beta to have.

    All I can do is keep saying (hoping to find a way to penetrate that armor you have: drop that Frame, and pick up the Godly one. Then we’ll see what happens. I actually think you’re in this process now.

  18. I did not think of picking up that girl, and then settle on merely flirting with her. I wasn’t even trying to flirt with her. As I said: I hate the TSA, and I wanted to not hate being at the airport, so I passed the time by being friendly.

    Example of a friendly comment: Nice weather we’re having today, isn’t it?
    Example of flirtation: Those are some serious _________ (fill in body part) you’ve got there.

    If it had been a man with muscled arms, I would have said: “Whoa, did you get bit by something? You’re all swollen up.” Just so we’re clear: I wouldn’t unknowingly be tempted to ravish him.

    You have got to be kidding me. Does any heterosexual man ever “pass the time by being friendly” by noting aloud to some other male in the vicinity that he has a swollen-up body part?

    : Don’t filter me through the lens of your husband.

    If I see a white creature with webbed feet swimming on a pond and saying “quack, quack, quack”, I don’t need a filter to tell me that it is a duck. Of course, it could just be that it’s a fake duck, something that is pretending to be a duck but isn’t really, but that would be hard to tell from my vantage point, so I’d just have to call it like I see and hear it.

    You’re reading too much into the situation; some of which is because you have too little information about the situation as a whole

    Maybe that is so. Please accept my apology if that is the case.

  19. @SSM
    Don’t call me a liar, and then offer a half-assed apology. I’m not the one holding you to following through on it. I didn’t even ask for one.

    Whatever else you may be trying to say, mostly what you’ve been trying to say today is that you’re angry with me. If you want to tell me something, just say it.

  20. A liar purposefully deceives people. I don’t think you are lying.

    A person who is kidding themselves, however, will try to rationalize it until the cows come home.

    Whatever else you may be trying to say, mostly what you’ve been trying to say today is that you’re angry with me.

    Don’t analyze what I’m saying through the filter of your own feelings.

  21. Sunshinemary- You sound like you are proponent of the same kind of uber-modesty that Elspeth was lamenting..the idea of completely hiding ourselves (our personalities or bodies) lest we accidentally excite a member of the opposite sex. By that notion men shouldn’t even have beards because beards are a sign of testosterone and testosterone is sexy. (I was reminded of this the other day when some very over weight man had some very sad looking whiskers on his chin. Most post-menopausal women could out-do his “beard”.

    Cane Caldo was being playful..something I frequently do myself for the sake of making an experience more interesting. I guess some might call it flirting. I call it “putting some butter on otherwise dry toast”. If you fall over yourself in lust over buttered toast then that is your problem. Buttered toast isn’t cake..making fun conversation isn’t the same as gyrating on a pole and expecting someone not to lust.

    And I really took that toast analogy a bit too far there.

  22. Gabby, ROFL on the buttered toast analogy.

    @Cane:

    No we actually don’t attend a church that is particularly serious on the modesty issue. It’s a typical big church when you look at the congregants, but the teaching is sound.

    In our social circle, and among our family members however, are people who do attend fellowships that are quite serious about these things, and I tend to be a bit “flashy” compared to all of the wives but one when we all get together.

    We had considered a switch of churches, but as much as we love these folks, a closer peek at the theology shows hints of legalism and we are not interested in that. However, they at least are on the same page as we are when it comes to the nature of marriage and family.

  23. @SSM

    Fair enough. You’re trying to find fault with me. I tell you that I will crack jokes with men, and you imply that I never do that, or that I’m gay if I do. You ask me to tell you if you’re not reading me correctly, and that you’ll apologize. I do this, and you half-ass it.

    If you’re not angry with me: then get off my case. I did nothing wrong.

  24. gabby – I haven’t addressed that issue on this thread. I’m actually pretty much in alignment with Elspeth on this issue of modesty although I don’t ever wear pants; my husband just prefers me in skirts, but they are modern skirts – not too short of course, but not Little House on the Prairie either. I wear make up and jewelry and have my hair colored, so I’m not above some feminine fussing by any means.

    As to my conversation with Cane – it’s not about what you think it’s about. I’m pretty sure he and I both fully understand the subtext.

    Elspeth, some time I would love to talk to you about how you guys have handled the tight-rope walk between a congregation that is legalistic versus one that refuses to actively condemn sinful behavior. We have found it difficult to find a church that doesn’t fall into one of those two camps.

  25. Cane, you are not arguing in good faith. You know I never implied you are gay. I’m not trying to find fault with you. I think you are in error though, and I think that is why you are being defensive.

    But I will get off your case. I like your blog and don’t want to get banned. 🙂

  26. I think she is accusing you of gaming other women by being cocky/funny. Even if you are not wanting to ravish them they might want to ravish you. I think she is simply accusing you of being immodest in your behavior.

    But if that is what she is saying then I think she goes too far. Some men might say the simple act of a woman wearing lip gloss is immodest but I would say that is going too far as well. We don’t shun our beautiy or personalities so nobody ever pines for what they can’t have. To some degree a persons covetousness is their own responsibility. We have to find the balance between flaunting and expressing ourselves.

  27. Cane wrote:

    get off my case

    and

    I don’t understand the subtext. Please explain it.

    Pick one. I can’t very well do both.

  28. Granted, I did change my mind, but in fairness to me, that was before you told Gabby that I understood some subtext; which I don’t–or at least I don’t believe I do.

    At any rate I changed my mind: I want to know what this subtext is.

  29. OK, fine. I think you are playing obtuse, but I will humor you.

    Based on comments you have made at Dalrock, on my blog, and here, you are an adulterer. You seem naturally to have an alpha type of personality, which you chose to indulge in even though you are a Christian. I am guessing that at some point, you were found out and made contrite apologies and promised to rein it in and be on good behavior. Based on your own timeline, you then found Game and understood more clearly the dynamics that had allowed you to be successful. You have made (very convincing, in my estimation) strong criticisms of game and advised other men against using it even to find or keep a wife. However, you yourself admit that you Gamed the girl at the airport; now you are trying to say that it was just harmless fun, but you said before that you gamed her in your own words. I am telling you that I think you are proud of your ability to game women and enjoy doing it. I am trying to warn you that you ought to give up that practice, especially in light of the counsel you give other men. I admitted that I am more than passingly familiar with men like you, which you then took as license to discount everything that I am saying to you because you are assuming that I am projecting on you my own hurt at being cheated on by my husband (it was a long time ago, by the way, and he wasn’t a Christian at the time). I am not projecting anything; I am telling you that you should stop gaming other women, and if you are going to game any one, focus that on your own wife. Otherwise, don’t write anti-game posts at Dalrock which generate 600 comments because you are being a hypocrite.

    If I thought you were a worthless PUA jerk, I wouldn’t even bother making this comment.

  30. I have committed adultery. I was not doing so at the airport.

    Not in my heart.
    Not inadvertently.
    Not at all.

    I can be friendly with an attractive woman in a regular, Texan, manly, way without secretly wishing to be adulterous, or being tempted to do so. I would have said the same thing if my wife was there; in fact I told her about it when I got home.

    Your first mistake is choosing to ignore my explanation of why I included that quip (“Crap. I just Gamed that Girl.”) in my post: The implications and workings of Game have been on my mind for months. It happened to be that within the overall story of the TSA woman, I realized what others would call Game, I call trying to not be angry that I fly for work, and friendly.

    You’re hearing these stories of adultery, and of the TSA agent, all at the same time so they run together for you. There are eight years between the adultery and the TSA agent; aside from the light years of difference in heart, and the circumstances of my marriage.

    Your next mistake is assuming that I want to obscure what you–again–assume is my current sin. I don’t. I would tell you. I would even say: This is what Game looks like (even though I believe that’s not what Game is; at least not all of it.) I’m really interested in trying to work this question of Game and Christianity out. I’m not interested in proving I’m right; I’m interested in becoming wiser.

    Your last mistake is assuming that I secretly want to commit adultery again, or that I’m tempted by it when I make innocent comments that women respond positively to. For one, I’m no longer a 20-year old married man who is denied–in bed and out loud–for six months straight anymore. (That was the first time, and it didn’t happen again until…) Secondly, it was a bad idea for me to move out when Mrs. Caldo said “I wish I’d never married you.” I won’t do that again. Not because I’m a Christian and it’s wrong, but because I genuinely hurt myself over the next eight months; several other people, too. Some people wouldn’t even call it adultery if you separate because your wife says she doesn’t want to be married to you anymore, but that would be a lie.

    (For those of you keeping score at home: How’s this “natural” sounding now, or “alpha”, for that matter? It’s not enough.)

    Finally, I had no idea your husband cheated on you. You said this:

    I am married to someone whose natural frame is very similar to yours. He had to learn to crucify this trait after coming to Christ because it caused him to be too tempted to sin.

    From this I only took that, at some time in the past, he had flirted with other women; not that he’d actually acted on it. In other words: I didn’t assume you meant more than what you wrote. Now, it is a terrible thing for a couple to go through, but I had no idea.

    I haven’t been coy, as you accused earlier. I haven’t been obtuse, as you accuse above. I haven’t been adulterous in flesh, mind, or spirit with any TSA agents, as you assume, now. I don’t know what the circumstances of you two’s past problems, and you don’t have to tell me, but I DO want an apology.

  31. “(For those of you keeping score at home: How’s this “natural” sounding now, or “alpha”, for that matter? It’s not enough.) “

    Still accurate. A woman can become just as unattracted to too much Alpha and starved Beta comfort building given the duration of the relationship.

  32. Yes, my husband did the “too much Alpha” thing and at that point I felt like my options were suicide or divorce because I had reached my peak level of endurance. I was still technically “attracted” to him I just felt like I couldn’t live with him and maintain my sanity. We eventually worked it out but only after I made very real plans to move out.

    So while I don’t know what caused the relational issues Caldo refers to I would not be one to assume that it was “too much beta” by default. I wouldn’t even necessarily assume it was his fault at all..as women often leave perfectly good husbands.

  33. I have committed adultery. I was not doing so at the airport.

    I never said that you were committing adultery at the airport, or even attempting to do so.

    Texan

    Figures.

    You’re hearing these stories of adultery, and of the TSA agent, all at the same time so they run together for you. There are eight years between the adultery and the TSA agent; aside from the light years of difference in heart, and the circumstances of my marriage.

    No, I didn’t assume that. In fact, what I assumed was that this was well in the past.

    Your next mistake is assuming that I want to obscure what you–again–assume is my current sin. I don’t.

    No, I didn’t assume that you were purposefully trying to obscure an adulterous heart, and that isn’t what I said, either. I think it is easy for someone who has your personality type to fool themselves into thinking it’s all harmless fun. Until it isn’t.

    I’m really interested in trying to work this question of Game and Christianity out. I’m not interested in proving I’m right; I’m interested in becoming wiser.

    OK, that’s my interest, too. I suppose that is why most of us are here. And I’ve benefited from what you’ve written, in that it has increased my understanding of what game is and why it probably isn’t a good thing for Christian men to employ.

    Your last mistake is assuming that I secretly want to commit adultery again

    I don’t assume you want to, but I think it’s unwise for someone who has that in his past not to be extremely careful. Sin isn’t something we usually plan to do; it’s often a series of small steps. I’m not saying you are making such steps, but what you wrote didn’t seem like wise behavior in my opinion. That is just my opinion, and if you submit it to the Lord and have peace about it, then I am wrong.

    or that I’m tempted by it when I make innocent comments that women respond positively to.

    I guess only you and God really know what tempts you; other people can point out potentially tempting situations and say, “I’d be careful if I were you.” That was really all I was trying to do.

    For one, I’m no longer a 20-year old married man who is denied–in bed and out loud–for six months straight anymore. (That was the first time, and it didn’t happen again until…) Secondly, it was a bad idea for me to move out when Mrs. Caldo said “I wish I’d never married you.”

    Why did she wish she had never married you? I’m not implying or assuming anything.

    From this I only took that, at some time in the past, he had flirted with other women; not that he’d actually acted on it.

    We, like you, married rather young. He, also like you, has a personality that is extremely attractive to women (being tall and rather handsome didn’t hurt either). He acted on this constantly for the first ten years of our marriage, culminating in a lot of tears and antibiotics. It’s all good now, because it was God’s big wake-up call to us, and becoming Christians was the best thing that could ever happen to us – Jesus saved us, literally. It really upsets me that people who are already Christians engage in such behavior; it’s a slap in the face to our Lord just as much as slutty EAPs’ behavior is.

    Secondly, women still find my husband attractive. This is extremely upsetting for a wife to notice. (it has one good aspect – if you think other women are after your man, you do *not* let yourself go physically). BUT – he actively modifies his behavior to discourage their interest in him. Are you doing that? The eyelash-girl comment would have upset me if I were your wife.

    I DO want an apology.

    Whatever else I may be, good or bad, I am humble. I do not mind apologizing when I am in the wrong. I may apologize to you at some point, but I am not going to do so right now because I am not convinced that it is needed, and I will not offer an insincere apology.

    (CC: You’re not my wife. Adios)

  34. @ar10308 and Gabby

    Game would call it classic AFC; but the root of the problem was really some poor groundwork before getting married. Select wisely, and approve them carefully according to scripture. I did not.

    In the first instance, having married quite young (17 and 11 months), and having done so under the cloud of pregnancy, I thought I was in for sex-unending…but never discussed it with her. Why would I? We had sex A LOT! A year after the first child was born the sex began to dwindle. By two years after it was a monthly or bimonthly affair, and then one day I realized it had been six months of me being told “No” every night, in various ways. I decided it would never happen again. Then, a girl from work invited me to coffee; whom I pumped and dumped.

    Mrs. Caldo found out a month later (because I’m really bad at keeping secrets since I don’t care for them), and after some crying, much beta behavior and feeling really really sorry, (but not confronting her about hurling me wildly into the path of temptation), we “moved on” and I changed jobs.

    Five years later we got into the same slump, with some additional issues of her weight (I’ve stayed relatively the same.), mistrust (for obvious reasons), incessant nagging, AND now I was traveling a lot. One night we had a huge fight, and at 2am she says “I wish we’d never got married.” and I said “Well, that settles that.” and walked out the door.

    That began eight months of adultery and fornication. About three months into it she started asking me to come back, and I said “No way”, even though I was miserable; pleasured, but miserable. (Don’t hear that from Game writers often, though it’s hinted at.) Then I realized: These women are worse than the one I left behind, and they all want to marry me. They are really foolish, and they think I am too.

    So, I told her everything I had been up to, and asked her: “Do you still want me back?” And she said “Yes.” This time, I said: “Then start losing weight, no more nagging, and don’t ever say ‘No’ unless your sick.”

    Again: Select wisely and approve them according to biblical standards, and don’t be afraid to walk away BEFORE you marry. It’s too late after. Like it or not, you WILL be bound to her if you’re a Christian; especially if she’s your first.

    No contentious women (repeated wisdom from Proverbs)
    No sexually active women–even with you (ibid)
    No women who don’t believe in submission (Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3)
    No women who don’t understand that women are the glory of men (no fat chicks).
    No women who don’t believe a spouse’s body belongs to the other spouse (1 Corinthians 7)

    If not, then be prepared to submit yourself to the breaking wheel of Game; understanding that there’s only one way to learn it. Roissy has it well-covered.

    The Frame I have now is from the proving of the wisdom of scripture; its power to overwhelm any opposition.

  35. Well, it seems that you are truly angry at me, and I am sorry about that because it was not my intention to offend you. I still don’t fully understand what it is that you think I have said that is so wrong.

  36. OK, I get it. I am aware that I’m not your wife.
    I thought it was a productive conversation, but I’m not here to harass you. I would be grateful if you would be a gentlemen and consider deleting my last comment entirely. I had thought we were on the same wavelength, but I was mistaken, and I wish I had not revealed personal details about my life now.

  37. No women who don’t understand that women are the glory of men (no fat chicks).

    I don’t understand how these things are related. Of course, I don’t really understand what “women are the glory of men” means anyway. By this logic should men not be fat because they are the Glory of God?

  38. gabby, it means that man is the glory of God and woman is the glory of man. It is in the bible, and expressed like that, if I recall correctly.

    In many ways this is a distressing thread. I am not sure I should comment further. I would add that I overdid the alpha once or twice, but probably overdid the beta more often.

  39. Some definitions of glory from dictionary.com:

    2. something that is a source of honor, fame, or admiration; a distinguished ornament, or an object of pride.
    4. resplendent beauty or magnificence

    Very few men want obese wives, and since we’re half animal and half spirit, some of that glory needs to be reflected in appearance. It can be dangerous for the Christian to put too much emphasis on physical beauty, but that doesn’t mean there should be a dearth of it. A sensible body weight is not an outrageous request of glory.

    As for men: Generally, no, they shouldn’t be fat. But the question is what does the owner of the glory think. I don’t think God wants men to be fat, but he’s probably more concerned about other things. Of course, in the instance where someone gets fat, or out of shape to the point of interfering with a healthy sex life and thereby denying the spouse: that’s a problem. In other words: A man shouldn’t hide his candle under a bushel.

    (No, that’s not what that verse means.)

  40. What men want is very specific but what God wants is something few people seem to agree on. It makes it all the more easy for men to rationalize their particular preferences. “God only cares about the inside..blah blah”.

    I find fatness on men to be absolutely repulsive. Of course my opinion is irrelevant, but it is a personal pet peeve to see male fatness accepted as “no big deal” while female fatness is derided.

  41. I didnt like it one little bit when my wife became fat. She was not fat when I married her, and only became so after a couple of children, but it still bothered me. She is now looking much better, but it took her years to take the weight off. Any women reading this, men HATE it when their wives get fat. And you can chalk up my wife finally losing some serious weight with diet and exercise to my upping the alpha. It was damn obvious that she started losing weight when she started seriously wanting to please me. A fat wife is a wife who does not respect her husband, in most cases. Some men genuinely don’t care, but I did, desperately. I only have her. She is the only woman I have ever had. And I care about appearances.

  42. DC said: In many ways this is a distressing thread

    Ha. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. So I went with damned.

    When I said I was Beta, I was told didn’t understand Game. Then when I gave examples of Game to show I understood it. Well then!, Not only am I Alpha, I’m a Natural Alpha, who doesnt give a damn abotut the poor Betas because, “I don’t know what it’s like.” Then it’s suspected that I’m possibly still at the edge of being a Bad Man, that I use Dark Game. Then a more complete picture comes out, and–predictably–there’s not much sympathy shown this devil.

    Which is irritating, but not unexpected. This thing could progress a lot faster if it was trusted that I am dealing in good faith; instead of assuming that I’m trying to pull a fast one, or run from my sin, or deny my nature…or whatever feverish explanation is held for why I don’t conform to exactly what they think I should be. That’s why I chose damned, and did.

    REGARDLESS: I’m not going to be scolded on my own blog by some misinformed woman who thinks I’m just like her husband, but worse(!) because I sinned in the same manner as her husband–except as a Christian. His sins are washed, but I must repent to HER satisfaction, and avoid all possible suspicion in HER eyes.

    If you think I’m overblowing it: take note that she never asks what my wife actually thought about any of it; including the TSA agent, which I mentioned I told Mrs. Caldo about. SSM’s only standard is what she feels about it.

    She can take it to her own blog, or apologize that she spoke rashly.

  43. @Gabby

    You must have missed my candle quip, and most of the rest. I can’t change the way the order of glory is set up. Men get more explicit instructions, for example:

    1Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

    There is a lot of this for men.

    @DC
    Yes, we hate it. It’s more than laziness, it’s a form of desertion.

  44. It’s funny to see a super skinny chick (Gabby) arguing for why a fat chick fails to live up to that standard of being the glory of her husband, LOL.

    Wow, Cane. I’m surprised you spilled all of that here, but I do think it might offer a little insight for all of us into why you think Game is such a risky thing for a Christian man to engage in.

    My husband would agree with you, by the way. Not because he ever cheated on me despite having natural frame and being handsome by any objective measure, but because his father used his own natural game to be a serial adulterer and my husband hated what it did to his mother. He and his male siblings were infused with the belief that the more women you bed, the more manly you were.

    So while my guy had his share of girlfriends, he also firmly resolved that when he got married, he would never do that to the woman who trusted him enough to take his name and raise his kids. This, and he wasn’t even a believer when we married. He would never claim that it has been easy, but frame works both ways. It can be righteous, or it can be used for sin.

  45. Then a more complete picture comes out, and–predictably–there’s not much sympathy shown this devil.

    Which is irritating, but not unexpected. This thing could progress a lot faster if it was trusted that I am dealing in good faith; instead of assuming that I’m trying to pull a fast one, or run from my sin, or deny my nature…or whatever feverish explanation is held for why I don’t conform to exactly what they think I should be. That’s why I chose damned, and did.

    I for one, have sympathy for you. Really. I don’t think you’re a devil but rather a man who committed serious sins and wants to help other men not make the same mistakes. That is to be commended.

    But you’re right about one thing. It’s taken me quite some time to come to terms with this, but in online debates no one will take what you say at face value once disagreement or an adversarial nature has entered to conversation. I’ve never been able to understand why that is, but it is what it is.

  46. I think CC is just angry about SSM’s dig at Texas.

    /joking
    /kinda

    But really, what is it about Texas? It is no Montana, that’s for sure.

  47. I actually don’t believe all women are capable of losing weight. I’ve seen some women try valiantly with no success so I can only assume that some people have very real medical conditions that prevent weight loss.

    What makes me a little crazy is the double standard. The idea that women MUST be thin to prove their worth and keep their husbands loyal but men have no such obligation. Elspeth- You know how I have ranted in the past about male movie stars getting fat and therefore removing their appeal as eye candy. That guy in Psyche would look so much better if he would just lose 20lbs. And don’t even get me started on John Travolta. http://whosfatthesedays.tumblr.com/post/2689942636/congratulations-john-travolta-youre-fat-these-days He needs to show some self-respect!

    And I am not super skinny. I weigh 140lbs at 5’4” and a size 10 pant. That is the very top of the weight limit charts. If a guy was attracted to Waif-like women he would find me disgusting.

    My husband is a lot more lax about the issue than I am. I was 170lbs once and he was still attracted to me though he definitely prefers me a bit thinner.

  48. What I see you saying in your “confessions” is that you deeply regret having married your wife and you wish everyday you could take it back and marry a more Godly woman who is more worthy of you.

  49. No, its not that. I would be disgusted if my husband got fat so I can hardly blame Cane for that. In fact..he barely put on 20lbs and I started making subtle hints to lose weight (and he is..thankfully). And that makes me a huge hypocrite because I am hardly waif-like.

    The reality that I did not understand before discovering the manosphere is that it is difficult for men to love women..faults and all..and that for a woman to be lovable she has to be nearly perfect. She must have a pleasant temperament, good in bed, physically attractive, domestically skilled, highly-disciplined, and very easy going. If the man is a Christian you add to those expectations a heart for God, a joy for suffering, and dedication to prayer.

    The only lovable woman is a saintly one and that is rather exasperating for us average chicks who are imperfect and have yet to master themselves completely.

    It also makes me realize that far fewer women are called to marriage that I had originally expected. I figured maybe 50% of women could make a good wife but now I am thinking it might be closer to 20% have the beauty, proper temperament, and domestic skill to be make a worthy wife.

    And the reason for all this is because “women are the glory of men” and that means that anything less than VERY GOOD is a shame to men. So a woman’s imperfections are not her own..they are a reflection of the men in her care. This means a woman who doesn’t measure up is a huge burden.

    That is not a pleasant reality, because I like to believe my sins are my own and are not a reflection on anybody else. Apparently though..they bring shame and dishonor to my husband and (I suppose?) my father.

    And now I both understand why men have a hard time loving a woman through her flaws and why women are so neurotic about hiding their flaws.

  50. Gabby, you are overthinking this. I suppose if a woman bears your name and is on your arm, she reflects on you. But only up to a point. I flatter myself I have made my wife a better woman, and I think she has helped me become less self-righteous. But we are still individuals. Maybe God will look to me to give an account first, but my wife has her own agency.

    I actually find my wife does MORE than I would expect. She can be comically dutiful. I still want her to lose more weight, but in the bedroom she has her little ways that please or have pleased me enormously. So I am not complaining. I really don’t think men expect perfection. Just a willimgness to comply and please sometimes.

    On married game, which you raised on the other thread, and the nuclear option, my wife has tried the old threatening to leave trick. This stopped once I learned to simply call her bluff. “Good bye … You know where the front door is … Have a good life”.

    I love the way you American sheilas call yourselves chicks.

  51. David Collard- You are one of the few men in the Sphere who actually enjoys his wife and marriage. And while some of the ways you describe her makes my skin crawl (referring to her sexual subservience and such) I do appreciate that you actually have a fondness for her.

    But most the Sphere admit to having made a poor choice in wife and feeling a loathing dread about living the rest of their lives with such a burden. You have Deti who despite the fact that his wife is fairly decent he can’t get over that she lied about her past and now he feels shame that he chose such an unworthy woman. You have greyghost who seems to have such a strong dislike for women in general and yet he is married with a daughter. Michael Singer has some pretty lofty expectations of women and will not hesitate to throw an “unworthy woman” out on her rear.

    I expect such feelings from “basement virgins” (to borrow a popular term) but from married men and fathers it is unsettling to realize the depth of disgust they have for their wives and (I can only assume) daughters.

    It makes me realize that nobody really knows what they are getting into when they get married. Men expect respect and women expect love and it seems neither get what they hoped for very often.

    My husband said to me the other day “You know I love you, right?” And I said “yeah..Love you too.” And he said “I sometimes think you don’t believe me when I say that”. And I said “to be honest, I don’t know that I believe a man is capable of really loving a woman who isn’t related to him..but I do believe you love me as much as is reasonably possible for the average man.”

    But thanks to the manosphere I do have a greater appreciation for what fondness he does have for me because it is a big step up from the disgust and hatred many men feel for their wives.

  52. Gee, thanks, Gabby. I think.

    A few points. Maybe I enjoy being married because of that “sexual subservience”. Whatever that is.

    I get on well with women, and I have two daughters I love and get on well with (and a son). My 18 y.o. kissed me goodbye when she went on retreat with school this week. She knows my views but she and I have an excellent relationship. People will never accept that “chauvinist” men often get a lot of female love. Our Leader of the Opposition here in Oz is constantly portrayed in the media as a Neanderthal chauvinist (he has views like mine) but he has a wife and three very attractive daughters who clearly love him.

    And I am very glad I married a virgin. Deti married a huge slut, who had misled him about her extensive sexual history. Putting it less politely, she had been fucked by, IIRC, over ten men before him.

    I expect a lot from my wife. And she expects a lot from me.

  53. I was being too kind to Deti’s wife, it seems. I like not to exaggerate. But it seems, according to a recent comment at Dalrock, that Deti thought his wife had “only” had ten previous lovers. In fact 21 men had fucked her.

    Do you see the problem, Gabby? Do you see why I stress that men should insist on virgins, and verify it if appropriate?

  54. I don’t have to question why men have contempt for women. I understand it. It is just a sad reality that most marriages are loveless.

    Personally, I think divorce is more charitable than living with a woman you hate but the Bible seems to disagree with me about that.

  55. I don’t like that you refer to her in sexual ways. I know you are anonymous but if anyone ever linked her to you in real life then they could never really respect her.

    There is a reason why teachers get fired if their sexual activities are made public. Instead of her being a serious person with important things to say she ends up just an object of lust and ridicule.

    But..like most things..my opinions is irrelevant and nobody else seems to be bothered by it so maybe it is just a personal hang-up.

  56. Gabby, have you read what women write about their men? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. One thing I want to do is help men learn what they may be missing out on. I think the average Western husband gets a very raw deal.

    As I said, look at the women in that picture. That is typical of the exhibitionism of American women. No shame. At least I am anonymous. My wife knows a lot of what I write. She reads my blog.

  57. I just wish I knew before I got married what I know now. I wish all young marriage-minded women would read the manosphere and realize what they are getting into.

    The chances of a happy ending are very slim indeed.

  58. Look, my wife is not an easy woman. Maybe such women exist. They may, but I suspect they are as rare as hen’s teeth. I have put a lot of work and thought into her, and action, and I still have to. She is a good wife, but I have had to “husband” her a lot. Men find women’s randomness very disturbing at times. And please cut me some slack. I have only slept with one woman in 25 years, my wife of course. We have some major problems with our children, medical let’s say. Nobody’s life is easy.

    I am pretty happy with my wife now, but I was a bit lucky in my choice and I have put in a lot of work on the marriage in my own way. If someone were to ask me, what is the secret of surviving with a woman, I would say, more endurance and guts than you can probably imagine.

    I have always tried to be realistic about women. Perhaps that is why I was never starry-eyed and stupid. The underlying tone in so much of the discourse in the Manosphere is that of men who looked at how sweet and pretty women can be, and America has good-looking women, and thought they were like that inside too. Then they marry one and reality bites. Hard.

    The only reason my remarks, and the remarks of Manosphere men, seem shocking to you, Gabby, is that they are what men really think, at least some of the time. We know what women think. And they come right out on the lawns of your Congress building and say it. The right to be “respected” while expecting to have their abortions paid for.

    I love my wife, but I am not stupid about her.

  59. Did you catch that? Let me translate: To see beyond the outer beauty of any given female, you must sleep with MANY attractive women. Does this sound anything but immoral to anyone?

    I then wonder, what’s the point of beauty if the PUA’s aim is to eventually see attractive women as dime-a-dozens? The beauty of a particular woman is supposed to be one of the attractive traits which leads to pair-bonding and helps you want to be with her.

    Do you see why I stress that men should insist on virgins, and verify it if appropriate?

    By stressing virginity you are giving leeway to “technical virginity” and are allowing a pass for other orifices to be used. As long as the hymen is there, correct? Any woman who claims to be a virgin yet allows a man who is not her husband to “verify” can’t be particularly chaste, can she? Or does the hole experience matter more than chastity?

  60. I just wish I knew before I got married what I know now. I wish all young marriage-minded women would read the manosphere and realize what they are getting into.

    The chances of a happy ending are very slim indeed.

    I’ve been waiting for that since you posted this:

    What I see you saying in your “confessions” is that you deeply regret having married your wife and you wish everyday you could take it back and marry a more Godly woman who is more worthy of you.

    Strange word you chose for this context: “worthy”.

  61. Laceagate, I checked my future wife’s physical virginity when we were nearing marriage. It was part of our general sexual play at the time. Since you are curious, yes I did use my future wife’s other orifices before we married. It was wrong. I am not a saint.

    Women hate the idea of being held to account as virgins. Most men would be delighted to even get technical virginity. It would be better than the 21 previous lovers that Deti’s wife had.

  62. I don’t think you can blame me though that nobody told me what the expectations were. I really wish I had known because I probably could have been more successful as a cat lady.

  63. I am not so presumptuous to know about Deti’s wife’s sexual past and quite frankly that is between them. I don’t think it’s true women hate being held to account for their chastity. It’s when the idea of purity is conflated with the experience of a hole or holes that is bothersome.

  64. I’ve been very blunt about my lack of chastity. I’m not trying to hide anything.

    My husband didn’t care but I wish he did. I wish he had done a better job “qualifying” me for marriage because I don’t like playing a game where the deck is stacked against me because of something I can’t possibly take back. I wasn’t marriage worthy..he married me anyway..and now I get to spend the rest of my life feeling inferior. I don’t like that and I sympathize with all the women who are in a similar situation…including Cane Caldo’s wife.

  65. Deti has discussed and lamented his wife’s sexual past. I remember when he first raised it on Alte’s old blog. He was clearly devastated by the way his wife had deceived him. But he has made a good adjustment and now offers good advice.

    Virginity is virginity. Nobody is completely pure, but virginity is a good start. May I point out that I had only had one woman sexually before my wife?

  66. Sorry, but God talks about chastity and not “technicalities.” I’m not here to redefine what God has made quite clear, even if the flesh attempts to blur the lines.

  67. That’s too bad if that’s the pervasive attitude roaming Christendom, and I see it intertwined with Game “theology.”

  68. I want to clarify one point. My wife had one fairly serious boyfriend before me. I imagine they played around a bit. I don’t know, and I can never know, nor do I want to know. And the poor bloke died in a road accident anyway. But I am confident that I was the first man to penetrate my wife both vaginally and anally. So I have never felt that I got “sloppy seconds”.

    Other men no doubt have other standards. That was mine.

    I love my wife very much, and part of that is probably because she and I have always been exclusive. I have learned not to listen to what other people offer as advice. Including my sisters and my mother. People want to destroy others’ happiness.

  69. @Laceagate & Gabby

    Mostly you’re talking to the wrong people…maybe not the “wrong” people, but people not in a position to do much anything about it except walk away: Men.

    Frankly, I’m of the opinion that it’s mostly too late for my generation; give or take another generation. These things happen: Poor King David…once he descended on Bathsheba, his house was ruined from top to bottom. Poor Kind David’s children, I should say. The Israelites enslaved in Egypt–born into that slavery–had to wander the desert for 40 years until they all died, because they were corrupted with Egyptian ways.

    It’s sad to see the effect on non-Christians, too. They have no idea the protection God afforded them by allowing them to live among Christians, while the Church* was true.

    “for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.”

    This is a correction, not a demise. We trust death isn’t the end, and it is in fact the final baptism of death that will lead to life everlasting, free from our own corrupted natures.

    Frodo:I wish the Ring had never come to me.

    Gandalf:So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

    *For the Catholics among us: that’s the Church Militant I’m speaking of.

  70. Gabby, I am not quite sure what you are complaining about. You are being unclear, and I don’t think it is just my lack of comprehension. But look up at this thread. I am a Bad Man because I write about the sex I have with my wife. What if she read it? The truth is she would probably not mind. You write about having been very unchaste. What if your husband read that, or it became generally known? Wouldn’t that shame him just a little? You say he knows. OK, but would he want everybody else to know?

    Double standards, everywhere. I remember Susan Walsh complaining along similar lines to you, about my wife and I and my stories, on a blog hosted by a woman, Alte, who was at least as blunt as me, if not more so, until she got an attack of the modesties. And yet Susan Walsh has publicly written about how titillated she was when a past, alpha, lover spat wine into her mouth at a party. How do you think her husband feels?

    Just look at the way women twist and turn. How many supposedly good Christian women in the Manosphere gave their husbands their virginity? And yet attempts are made to shame me, a man who has had one wife for 26 years and who has only bedded one other woman in his life, for being, gasp!, a bit rough and ready with his wife. Man who Games Wife Hard – Bad. Woman who Sluts it Up Big – OK.

    I suppose I sound angry. But it is more wonder and bafflement at the downright odd attitudes of women. As Cane said, men are damned whatever they do. Women are excused, always.

  71. I am NOT trying to shame you. I am telling you that if I were your wife I would hate the way you spoke about me. The few times my husband has publicly made reference to our bedroom life I felt humiliated. I am simply stating that I don’t like it. I’m not telling you how you should act.

    Posts like Canes and many of the ones I have read lately make me moody because I realize that men have a hard time loving women and it makes me feel that I will inevitably be dumped.

  72. My husband isn’t embarrassed by the fact that I wasn’t a virgin. I just asked him to make sure and he said “You are kidding, right? That’s just stupid.”

    He isn’t particularly possessive.

  73. Gabby, you said you were not “marriage worthy”. I took that to mean more than just “not a virgin”.

    I have discussed our sex life online, under a pseudonym. Never publicly in real life. And I discussed it on blogs with women who were doing similar.

    I don’t have a hard time loving my wife.

  74. I’ve done every bad thing imaginable (except for having a physical affair) because I just wasn’t ready/capable of the selflessness that being a good wife requires. I had hoped that each new day was a new beginning to forget the past and start anew but Cane Caldo’s post reminds me that the past is never really gone and forgotten and therefore a woman who has made mistakes is not really lovable. The mistakes of the past are always a part of the present and that is reality difficult to deal with and makes me feel very vulnerable and doubt whether my husband is really capable of loving me at all since we have such a rocky past. I’ve always been fearful he is going to dump me but at the particular moment that fear is amplified.

    Right now I am regretting marriage but in a few days I may calm down and not feel this intensely insecure.

    I hate the idea of my husband having contempt for me but I suspect he might.

  75. Well, I wish you luck. And I shall pray for you. There is so much hidden sadness.

    I have told a lot of the bad stories from my marriage, as well as the good ones, but there are a few I have held back. Suffice it to say that we have had some very rocky moments too. One of the reasons I think the Internet is so therapeutic, or can be, is precisely because people can tell the unvarnished truth. I hope some people have learnt from my remarks, or at least been amused, as I am sometimes trying to be funny. And I have learned some good tips for my own marriage. I now understand my wife a lot better and I feel more in control of the situation. It is not that there are no ups and downs now, but I can dampen them down a lot. And I owe a lot of this to Internet discussion.

    Just be careful. I have had people in real life and online tell me to “dump the bitch”. I am glad I ignored that bad advice.

    It probably sounds silly, but I am sociologically inclined, and fascinated by women, and the ‘net is a good place to hear their real thoughts and fears.

  76. the past is never really gone and forgotten and therefore a woman who has made mistakes is not really lovable. The mistakes of the past are always a part of the present and that is reality difficult to deal with and makes me feel very vulnerable and doubt whether my husband is really capable of loving me at all since we have such a rocky past.

    I’m a little late to this party but I think Gabby that you are erroneously conflating what you read in the manosphere to what your husband and other men who don’t spend time there think. I highly doubt that your husband has contempt for you. I truly mean that.

    Additionally, I do think it is possible for a man to really love a woman. I’m not bragging or being condescending but I believe that my husband’s love for me is deep and true despite the fact that he knows my past sins. I actually think it is harder for a woman to really and truly love a man than vice versa.

    As for the virginity/chastity question: The only standard that matters is God’s, not what we are comfortable with. This is that standard: NO SEXUAL ACTIVITY OF ANY KIND BEFORE MARRIAGE. If we do not meet that standard, we are in no position to judge another without having truly repented and having forged a solid track record of chastity and fidelity in our marriages or a renewed commitment to chastity if one is a single believer.

  77. Elspeth- You are right that I don’t particularly know what is universal among men and what are the particular beliefs of those here.

    I can’t get over the idea that women are held to such a high standard and if they don’t manage it they are in “rebellion” and a shame to their husbands.

    That is certainly not what I was expecting when I got married. I had the thought that we would grow and mature together and forgive each others missteps. I didn’t know my misdeeds made me unworthy of marriage or my husbands love and that does seem to be the impression I keep getting from the men who write on these issues.

  78. That is certainly not what I was expecting when I got married. I had the thought that we would grow and mature together and forgive each others missteps. I didn’t know my misdeeds made me unworthy of marriage or my husbands love and that does seem to be the impression I keep getting from the men who write on these issues.

    But Gabby, throughout all my interaction with you I have never gotten the impression that what you are describing applies to your husband at all. Not even in the slightest. It seems to me that most of what you are lamenting are views and notions you have picked up from the manosphere, not from your own man. Am I wrong about that?

    If I’m right, then you’re not being fair to your husband, who seems like a far more forgiving man than anything I’ve seen in the male-centered blogosphere. To lump him in with them and ascribe their views and opinions onto him when he hasn’t expressed that view himself is not only wronging him, but putting an undue burden of misery on yourself.

  79. I thought it best to just let the comments roll, but I can’t let this one pass:

    Gabby said: I can’t get over the idea that women are held to such a high standard and if they don’t manage it they are in “rebellion” and a shame to their husbands.

    Leaving alone the genitals of anyone other than a spouse is not a high standard. It’s only our disordered appetites that make it seem so.

  80. I’m not entirely sure what you are talking about. Where did I talk about genital touching?

    In the paradigm of Woman As Reflection of Mans Glory a woman who lacks goodness and beauty is a shame to her husband. It is THAT I have trouble digesting…and I am still trying to decide if I even agree with it and if Scripture backs it up. I know you would say that I am but a woman and am incapable of abstract reasoning or some such nonsense but I am capable of researching and applying the Socratic method to a hypothesis.

  81. Ah. I though you were referring to virginity.

    “Don’t get fat” is a perfectly reasonable standard of beauty for wives. There is room for preference and grace, and change; without being too open ended “love me for who I am under all this.” Of course we do; now love us more than the pizza and TV.

    Gabby, always keep in mind that I write from a Christian man’s perspective. It is likely that I cannot provide the edification you desire.

  82. @ CC: Your format doesn’t seem to allow me to link my blog URL; that is, I can’t change it from nothing to something. Ah well; all one needs do is click my gravatar, I guess.

    @ DC: So I see.

    @ Gabby: Aw, poor baby.

  83. Don’t worry; I’m not interested in picking a fight with anyone, just for the sake of picking a fight.

    Mind you, I won’t back down from one, either, if someone else starts one.

    And I won’t be shamed into apologizing for anything to anyone, ever again. Screw that. 🙂

  84. Indeed, DC. But not only; to any woman, unless you were truly wrong, and you keep it short, and move on. And you decide, don’t let them decide for you, if you need to apologize for anything.

  85. Exactly.

    Unlike you, however, I’m not a cat lover in the least; I’m rather fond of Ambrose Bierce’s ‘Devil’s Dictionary’ definition of cat:

    “Cat – a small, furry automaton provided by nature to be kicked when things go wrong in the domestic circle.”

    However, I haven’t ever deliberately kicked a cat; only once, by accident, did I sort of kick one. Well, rather, when at a friend’s house and his cat jumped on the bottom of my legs when I was sleeping on my stomach, I instinctively kicked up my lower legs, and sent the bloody furball sailing through the air: you should have heard the howl it made when it landed (presumably not on its feet, either, being pitch dark)… It avoided me after that, as well it should have in the first place.

  86. “Women see an apology as weakness.”

    It is, hence my resolve not to, unless truly necessary, ever again – and not to let one of them influence me into so doing, for any reason.

  87. Pingback: Linkage Is Good For You 8.26.12 | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

  88. Pingback: There is No Poon II: Solipsism, The Dark Triad, and Game | Things that We have Heard and Known

  89. Love your use of the word dark, I’ve always thought of it as the deep magic..also glad your marriage worked out despite the rough days. It’s amazing what God can do and how He uses us, you seem to have much wisdom because of your beginnings.

  90. I wonder if you are an Alpha, why your wife would get fat and deny sex?

    Just wondering. Not an accusation. I am truly curious and feel free to email as busy as you are. I have very strong A characteristics to the point that my b-i-l is a true A through and through saw me as a threat the first time we met, outweighing me with pure college running back muscle. Me same height, but ironman triathlon lean. We are great friends now because I again I have strong A characteristics and his threatening way doesn’t phase me.

    Wife is 5/8 120lbs with long hair and was a flaming liberal feminist. Now she is so much trying to be a submissive respectful wife. She would fall into the slut category before we met, but says I’m her best. Me? No, she is not my best, she got pregnant and I am holding my frame of commitment under God.

    She turned me into a full blown beta, but after reading you and other RP I came to know that the man I was when I started banging her, was the man I should be and that has increased our frequency to any time I want. I no showed her one night to bang another when we were dating. She shit tested, but I didn’t know what that was. I just came to her house, watched movies with her and friends, when they left I shagged her again…

    I can see if you became beta then sort of morphed back, but…..

    My went full feminist retard once married and I went full retard beta schlubb. Now I am Alpha with Beta or I would just say Balphta. I thing a real Alpha would be divorced living alone. Maybe divorced several times or never married and living the lonely life a bachelor indefinitely because he can’t help it.

  91. @Jeff

    You’re misunderstanding the exchanges. I don’t take the alpha/beta dichotomy as a real thing. It’s a very limited shorthand. If they were more real, I would not describe myself as an alpha.

    If women behave badly because they are bored, then the problem is with women. If I lead a women to bad behavior by my behaving badly, then that’s my fault.

    Similar to my case, in yours it seems like your girlfriend wanted a playboy, and so she picked one. She just didn’t know that you were on the fence about your playboy status, and she wasn’t thinking long term.

    So perhaps the reason they get fat, turn feminist, deny sex, etc is because they were better pleased with playboys. That doesn’t mean husbands are doing it wrong.

  92. No Cane. I wouldn’t be sarcastic to someone who is teaching me wisdom. I appreciate the lessons in RP from all of these blogs. I don’t understand some concepts that some see as cut and dry, so you clarifying your position helps edify my own thoughts, which were and now are back to eliminating the strict dichotomy of A and B and the whole AFBB.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s