To Gabriella, who is in the Majority

A word on reading this: The links are important, and give much context. Most of the truly important parts I have included as hover-text so you don’t have to actually open the page, but it is a more excellent way if you do. These things take time; which I encourage you to take as testament to my sincerity.

Hosea 10

13 You have plowed iniquity;
you have reaped injustice;
you have eaten the fruit of lies.
Because you have trusted in your own way
and in the multitude of your warriors,

This is a learning opportunity. If not: you can still be of service to other as a signpost.

Gabriella, over many comments on my post Advocates Under Authority, has made many comments about why she ought to be exempt from obeying God’s revelation of the natural order of men and women; especially concerning husbands and wives.

In her latest several iterations of “I just don’t feel like submitting to my husband” she said:

Egalitarianism is trickier. Perhaps not to [Dalrock], but I have a hard time not seeing a rejection of egalitarianism as a cop-out. Its like, even if you make a good argument that women are not equal to men, there is still the nagging sense that they SHOULD be and perhaps with the right training they could be.

Where oh where could that nagging sense have come from? No person should trust the judgment of a one with a perpetual nagging sense that what they want is therefore probably good, because they judge the goodness of things by an unnamed and indefinite feelings of want. You have read that that rebellion leads to sin and death, yet you reject it for nebulous “nagging senses”. Instead, you ought to recognize such sensations for the call of temptation that it is, demolish the argument, and make it captive to Christ.

There are a few things I’ve made up my mind about and one of those is the permanence of marriage. Another is that BC is evil, and it only took me 8 years to come to that conclusion.

No family has eight years to spend for a wife (or a husband for that matter) to suss out every moral quandary. You’ve accomplished two. At this rate, when you decide to agree with 6,000 years of scriptural REVELATION, you and your descendants to the tenth generation will be dead. Does this seem profitable to you?

I suspect you chose to tackle the birth control issue before marital submission precisely BECAUSE it is not explicit in scripture. Isn’t it not only possible but foretold to you that the “nagging sense” you have is a refusal to submit to clear revelation from the Lord? Birth control is, you know, “important” like abortion and homosexuality*, as the crumbling American churches keep telling us. But in today’s society you can look around and know most American Roman Catholics don’t really care two whits about them. Their negligence means it’s really up to Gabby; not the church, because the RCC only barely pretends to care about it, and they mostly as a rallying point. This de facto vacuum of authority leaves Gabriella the power to choose, and that satisfies you. It satisfies you so much that you sucked that lollipop of personal empowerment on whether to choose birth control for EIGHT YEARS; on what is long-settled Catholic teaching. If my assumption of this is wrong, that can be easily proved by whether or not you used birth control during those eight years, or obeyed (took, as a man takes a woman) their authority by faith until you had sorted it out.

When my post on authority and the ensuing argument was fresh, I struggled with whether or not to say what I am about to say. Back then I decided against it. Upon further consideration, and having re-read the post and all the comments all over again I have changed my mind. It is more important to me now that other men understand the dangers of being unenthusiastic and foolish about their wives than it is to protect other’s feelings, extend the benefit of the doubt, or avoid possible harm to other’s relationships. Unlike Zippy, at a certain point I believe I can make statements about the psychology of people based on their comments. Words are a REVELATION–an uncovering–of a person, and “What comes out of the mouth of a (wo)man defiles him (her).

28 For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will deliver you into the hands of those whom you hate, into the hands of those from whom you turned in disgust, 29 and they shall deal with you in hatred and take away all the fruit of your labor and leave you naked and bare, and the nakedness of your whoring shall be uncovered. Your lewdness and your whoring 30 have brought this upon you, because you played the whore with the [world] and defiled yourself with their idols.

Those idols are self-esteem, self-empowerment, your own understanding, and all seemingly various fruits which actually have one tree.

Based on what you have said about your husband, a big part of the problem is that your husband is (or was) physically and spiritually lame. There is probably very little to nothing he can do about being handicapped. For whatever portion–if any–of your subversion of him is due to his physical incapacities: double shame should be heaped on you. If that actually plays no part, then good on you. I cannot and will not comment further on that, as you haven’t spoken on it much, and what you have is often of still being physically attracted and available to him. This is good.

However; I think his spiritual lameness is much more crippling to him and you. You are drifting about like a ship without a rudder, even in the relatively calm waters of this blog. There are no woman-haters here. There are many women here. There are no non-Christians here. Your comments are carefully read. Even when you are rebuked it done so thoughtfully, and at significant length and time. This is because we give a damn. We give a damn because we believe–buried under (and in spite of!) all the bullshit you churn out–you want to give a damn, too. I believe you are starving to be in submission. That’s why you come to my blog. Here, you get the best of both worlds: You don’t have to obey me, but I provide a relativley unbendable spiritual rod of correction that you crave. It’s just like American Roman Catholic church. I do not speak of rods with prurience, but I am talking of things that are sexually entwined because the Lord made it so.

You are a practicing Catholic, yet your husband is not even of the same faith. You spend hours (years you said!) reading about what others think (submitting yourself to them) about various issues, and somewhere in the background of your life your husband HAS an opinion on these things; an opinion you should be seeking as fervently as you have my blog.

And he allows it.

You are not one flesh, as you have been called. You are not the body, and he is not the head. Christ said “I am the vine, and you are the branches.” In the sublime way God chooses to make truths echo and transcend: Your husband is the vine of your marriage. You, branch, must submit to this temporary church of the family that you have joined with him, or die.

You are still “so blind”, and you have been warned that you will be uprooted.

Instead, you spiritually break yourself off, and call it holy because you attend a Catholic church, agreed with them on birth control, resigned yourself to marriage, and read a lot of theology. To you it must seem cheap to compare the riches of busy blogs and Augustine’s writings and papal encyclicals to the two coppers worth of seeking and obeying your husband’s will. But from what I have read I feel secure in saying that your soul is poor and pitiful indeed. In truth giving up that mite of service would be the world to you and Christ. Instead you walk away sorrowful because all you care about is being wealthy by your own measure, instead of that of your Father in heaven, and your husband. You did not even have the wisdom to honor the worldly standards of wealth of your earthly father.

Do you see a pattern here, Gabriella? Men: do you see a pattern here? Consider how important are your relationships to your daughters. Consider the patterns you set for them in the way you allow your wives to behave. There is much more at stake than we can know.

As it stands: You’re a moneychanger; exchanging cheap offerings of experience as sacrifices in your own temple when YOU COULD WIN YOUR HUSBAND’S SOUL WITHOUT A WORD by submitting to him and calling him lord, as your spiritual forebear did. By this you would be a branch of Sarah, too–more honorable than anything this world offers. YOU could be the man of your husband’s heart; grooming it with long-suffering, and penetrating it with supplication; to bring forth the fruits of headship, honor, and love. These you could feast on, instead of scrabbling for others’ spiritual scraps.

Men: This is surely your wife’s fate if you do not take being an obedient follower of Christ and an understanding husband (wise to their weakness and innocent of injury) seriously. If there was ever an age where men could be merely a material provider and get fidelity: this is not that age. You are surrounded by evil wolves; male and female. To be a husband is to be watchful and involved and work to make a thing grow; pruning her vices and staking her virtues. It is leading her to pastures of faith, mucking the stalls of your house from the filth of the world, and washing her with the clean water of the Word. You are called grooms for a reason.

A final word: There is no guarantee. Gomer lacked for nothing in Hosea’s house.

Plead with your mother, plead
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband
that she put away her whoring from her face,
and her adultery from between her breasts;

“…from between her breasts”; where her heart is. Gomer, like many, chose to be a whore for the personal pleasure of it.

I have found this conversation edifying because I learned that I am not a traditionalists in the strictest sense of the word, and based on the conversations this has spawned in our household my husband isn’t a traditionalist either.”

So do many Christian wives and husbands. Do not be among them.

I wonder if Ezra is still around. She had a lot of good comments.

 

*I do think birth control, abortion, and homosexuality are evils. Now get back on topic.

28 thoughts on “To Gabriella, who is in the Majority

  1. You misunderstood a few things but I am on my tablet so it is hard to type. I dont question marital hierarchy. I question the particulars.

    Also… I have never used birth control. I wasnt being rebellious while l questioned the wisdom.

    I generally try to err on the side of caution. Lean not unto your own understanding.

  2. Im not understanding what you are telling me to do differently. Stop taking an academic interest in theology?

    My husband has zero interest in theology. It bores him..so I satisfy my interest in my spare time. Are you saying this is rebellious?

  3. Interesting post, and because I truly believe your intent is noble, I will contemplate, listen, and read the conversation before adding my two cents.

    Sidebar: If nothing else, Gabby and her Mr. have been fruitful, LOL. Probably more than most everyone here. I trust her answer on the BC issue.

  4. what you are telling me to do

    Maybe think on why you wrote these words in a question….Im not Cane (obviously) and do not pretend to be his proxy in this matter….just a thought

  5. I think you are reading more than is there. Cane is condemning my behavior and my thoughts. I am saying my behavior does not match my thoughts. I submit even when I disagree. To my husband and to my Church. Most the time I come around to agreeing but it might take some time.

    Ive been pondering Submission for years. There are certain questions that are still unanswered. Ultimately I have always believed my behavior matters to the state of my soul more than does my intellectual understandings….or lack thereof.

    Just because I arrived at some conclusions faster than others doesnt mean I dont care as much about the things I am still unsure about.

  6. As I think I know Gabby a little better than most here, and have found myself in a frustrated conversation with her as she wrestles with these issues, I have to vouch for her. Whatever her struggles (and as documented here they seem to be many), she keeps to the tenets of her faith even as she voices her concerns and doubts, which is more than I can say for most believers.

    Still waiting to hear from Cane before I attempt addressing the substance of his post.

  7. @Gabriella

    These things are not what you said in the other thread. The best I can say is that you’re double-minded. Not a good thing, scripturally speaking. Christ says “The mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart.” You say: “I live differently than I say.” Bull. What you said defiled you.

    Now you’re essentially complaining that I don’t know what “you’re really like”. It’s the old,”YOU DONN KNOW ME! MINE YA BI’NESS!”, you see.

    I submit even when I disagree. To my husband and to my Church. Most the time I come around to agreeing but it might take some time.

    I think you’re lying. Even if you’re not: You’re doing it again here. Notice the tack I take in my posts: “This is what scripture says.” Compare that to the tack you take: “After a few years, I usually agree with my husband and the church. I’m actually noble for not believing the teachings.”

    Christians who genuinely fall into sin do not wonder about the goodness or timelessness of revealed instruction, but that doesn’t bother you because in your mind, you are your own judge, jury, and pardoner. You think it speaks WELL of you that you usually come around to seeing things the way of your husband and your church. A proper attitude would be that your opinion does not matter, terribly because you know it is corrupted by sin. But even that does not get to the root of your sin, because your hesitation (at best) to be obedient is not about what you think, but

    what

    you

    feel.

  8. There are times the church conflicts with my husband which causes me strife…as either choice seems sinful.

    [CC: And? Why should anyone take that into consideration of your guilt? On what grounds do you introduce this fact as pertinent to the mess you made in my comments?]

  9. I give up trying to get you to understand. I have a lot if inner conflict and a strong desire to know what is true…which is why I come here. I dont think you can understand me….but it isnt your job to try so Ill accept your condemnation and hope my emotional discomfort will at least serve a purpose. I

  10. And? Why should anyone take that into consideration of your guilt? On what grounds do you introduce this fact as pertinent to the mess you made in my comments?

    Didn’t see this.

    I said it because it is why I have questions about submission. I vowed to be obey the Church at my confirmation. I vowed to obey my husband at our wedding. If those two vows conflict then it leaves me to question which trumps the other.

    You don’t understand that I can have legitimate doubts. You think that if I have a doubt it is because I am letting my feelings trump the truth. I realize my feelings are not truth, but sometimes they point to the truth. Sometimes they don’t…and they are the result of my fallen nature. I don’t know which until I subject it to reason.

    You condemn my feelings but I don’t consider my feelings something I have absolute control over, so I don’t see why you would guilt me for not feeling a particular way. It would make more sense to pray for me, since it is ultimately God who blesses me with a desire for the right things. While your guilt trip is effective in pointing out my flaws, I have yet to understand what you think I should do about it. Other than pray that God gives me right feelings, what can I do but try to do the right thing despite my feelings?

  11. This friends, is one of the cruxes of the Protestant/Catholic divide, probably only second to the Virgin Mother issue. This is about something far deeper than whether or not Gabby is rebellious.

    One of the things I appreciate about Catholicism is that they acknowledge the value of doing the right thing even when you ain’t feeling it. I fear it often veers off into legalism and a spiritless faith, but overriding our feelings as an act of the will while praying for God to continue to turn our hearts is certainly not a bad starting point.

    Protestants, to both our credit and detriment, emphasize on the state of our hearts and the thoughts we allow to roam free in our minds, believing that (according to Scripture) the actions follow the mind and the heart. Just as the Catholic way can lead to legalism, the Protestant way can lead to flaky, wishy washy man-spirit led “Christianity” that really isn’t Christianity at all.

    This is why I think Cane has a problem with Gabby’s implied mental rejection of submission while simultaneously claiming to behave submissively to her husband. To be fair Gabby, he has a point. God most certainly does want us to accept the Truth of His word and the superiority of His commands from our hearts. If we don’t reach this place of acceptance at some point, we will eventually reject the Truth and go our own way. Willpower and outside pressure cannot sustain our Faith long term

    I do commend Gabby however, for doing what is right because it’s what her Church teaches even as she struggles. I continue to pray for her to be relieved of the pressure to be an accomplished woman by worldly standards because with her marriage and 6 beautiful children, she is more than accomplished in a way that matters most.

    I don’t know if this constitutes a “defense” but I think I am on to something here Cane. Penny for your thoughts? I already know Gabriella’s.

  12. @ Elspeth

    You fell for Gabriella’s reframe of the conversation AWAY from:

    1. Her own past behavior

    2. Her unrepentance from that behavior, despite the consequences (one of which we must say is being squashed between a husband and a church)

    3. Not only her unrepentance, but 33 comments in defense of her choices as good and even necessary for self-esteem–which is, itself, a farce.

    4. Some of those defenses were quite vociferous. You can check the links above, and there are many more where that came from

    5. Multiple curses thinly-veiled as warnings that my daughters would revolt against me

    6. She brought in Laceygate to uphold her position. (Who, by the by, tried to entrap me to defend myself against the (novel and bizarre) charge of retro-active apostasy.

    7. A game she likes to play (maybe Lacey taught her?) is to accuse me of being in danger of thwarting God’s will if I don’t set my daughters loose in the world–as God might call them to be. (This is almost certainly Baptist thinking.) She can relate to this scenario, because when she was a teenager she rebelled against her father including by fornication (he is a bad guy, you see, with heinous intents for her, like: “go to college”, “get married”, “have babies”, and “make decent money”), and when she came of majority age she ran from his authority and wound up in the military. Sounds a hell of a lot like running away from Dad, and straight into Daddy USA’s care. Lot of dudes there. She doesn’t need authority, you understand. She’s going to make her own choices…you know: like enlisted people do when they sign away their lives four years at a time.

    I’m sure I could go, but that covers the gist of it.

    So, that’s what we’re being directed away from. Let’s look at what we’re being directed towards:

    1. She really like these feelings. (By the way: It is important that we be clear on what we’re talking about when we say feelings. Protestant hogwash [“I feel the Lord is…”] and post-modern psycho-babble [“My feeling is we should…”] has muddied even these waters already-murky waters.) I’m talking about actual emotions; including but not limited to the drama of telling your own story…except we’re Christians. It’s not your story. It’s His story, and it’s our story; as Christianity is personal, worshipful, and communal.

    2. The fact that she has NOT explicitly expressed her actual emotions (She finally does, in these comments. We’ll come back to this.) and yet she claims that I’m condemning her for those emotions. This is a lie. If, for example, someone made her very angry, and she shot them: I would have her arrested for murder; not first degree anger. This is another game where she tells me the choices she made, and I’m supposed to guess at the emotions. If I get it right: then I should know that these emotions consecrates choices–good or bad–as long as she really felt them. (This could very well be the flowering of her Baptist upbringing.)

    3. Her relentless appeals for us to see that she’s “not bad” because she likes the feeling of reaching her own conclusions in a way that flatters the Catholic church. (Not much said on agreement with the husband, though.) This is a particularly appealing strategy for Christians because we love stories about scales falling from eyes, and the truth of things being revealed to us. Gabriella is trying to tap into that feeling in us, but that’s not what happened. See above.

    4. Her insistence that she wants good things for herself. This is another decidedly Christian appeal because Christians are too often in the business of perpetuating the foolish idea that if you’re good, you’ll be Christian, and vice versa. Christ is in the business of finding people lost in sin, calling them to repentance, and redeeming them to His flock. Christ is no use to Gabby because she knows how to find the way back…herself…eventually.

    Elspeth, Gabriella is not struggling with her emotions. She’s indulging her emotions, and struggling with the consequences of the choices that she allowed to be dictated by emotion–including the choice to refuse coverage under authority.

    Now, not to be hogging the limelight, but a couple things about me might clear up a misconception or two. Though I am a Protestant, I have a decently Catholic frame of mind, I think. In the comments of 40-odd posts, there are probably 10 or so wondering when I’m going to become Catholic, or why I’m not already. I know the works-faith divide. “Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.”, St. James said. (And well, too! I love the punchiness of it; the chauvinism. It’s downright Catholic in the best sense.) Gabriella showed her deeds, and they lacked faith. As far as I can tell from what she’s written: they both sleep.

    She claims to be caught between her husband, and the church. Now, unless I have seriously misread a thousand comments from her over the past couple years: her husband does not prevent her from partaking in mass. I don’t know if he even goes, because she rarely talks about him except to bring up his disability, but I don’t need to know. If he’s going to another church, she should go with him. She can attend mass at her own church, too. If he doesn’t go anywhere, then she can continue as she has. I say all that because: going to church is not her problem. Her problem is that she spends too much time being concerned about what other people think, and not enough about what her husband needs and is doing, and how she can help meet both of those. More importantly: she should be asking him to read scripture (theology books might be a harder sell, initially) with and to her, and to pray with and for her. I don’t think it matters if he’s even a Christian. “I want to learn from you.” is a spiritual, emotional, and physical aphrodisiac to all but true Dark Triad men. She ought to be practicing Girl Game, and I don’t mean shoes, or new sex positions.

    As I said in my post: I have no doubt that he has problems and weaknesses that are affecting this situation. It will not be solved by flooding my blog with poor advice that is both unscriptural and unsound even by the world’s standards. Anyone can look around and see that more and more women are living their lives outside the authority of husbands and fathers. There are more women in college; more women in offices; more women CEOs; more women in government…and everything is turning to shit–starting with the families.

    Finally, I believe Gabriella comments on my blog because she’s made me into a fantasy. She writes:

    If you are trying to condemn my feelings then I cant argue.

    She is defeated. Does this mean she calls scripture right, and her words wrong? No; because what was defeated is her hope that I like her.

    A few minutes later she followed up:

    I give up trying to get you to understand. I have a lot if inner conflict and a strong desire to know what is true…which is why I come here. I dont think you can understand me….but it isnt your job to try so Ill accept your condemnation and hope my emotional discomfort will at least serve a purpose. I [sic]

    Notice the incomplete backspace that left a dangling, lonely “I”. Here is the translation:

    “I give up trying to get you to like [me]. I have a lot if inner conflict and a strong desire to know what is true…which is why I come [to you]. I dont think you can understand me [can you?]….but it isnt your job to try [sigh] so Ill accept your condemnation [just give me something. Please?] and hope my emotional discomfort will at least serve you. I [don’t know how to end this.]”

    An hour and a half later (with no response from me) she gets over giving up and continues to try to get more peace from inner conflict, and truth, from me:

    While your guilt trip is effective in pointing out my flaws, I have yet to understand what you think I should do about it. Other than pray that God gives me right feelings, what can I do but try to do the right thing despite my feelings?

    What would Roissy say? (Not that she is trying to seduce me. I’m speaking of the general male-to-female dynamic.)

    To finish this off: I asked two questions of Gabriella, and she could not answer them. There is no excuse here, because last September I wrote a 1,500 word post that was an answer to both those questions if she’d only submit to a plain reading of the Bible.

  13. My father and husband are unfairly slandered here. Neither deserve to pay for my loose lips and emotional angst. I obviously made a critical error …perhaps out of respect for these men you could do me the courtesy of sharing this information with Elspeth privately rather than showcasing it to the world?

  14. I don’t crave to be liked. I crave to be understood. And..I crave to understand others. I don’t think it is a sinful desire, but it has come to my attention that I risk my families reputation which isn’t fair to them.

    My husband is a great man. A hero..actually. He deserves nothing but respect.

  15. Hello, Cane Caldo, et al. Thank you for mentioning; “Ezra” is still around; just posting under another name for privacy’s sake now and posting less frequently due to at least three large life changes in the past few months.

    I’m currently running through my second lurking on this thread and the previous one in question, re-reading the commentary. I would like to comment later, after I have refreshed the matter mentally.

  16. “I do think we need to differentiate between the types of feminism. I have an egalitarian impulse, but I associate feminism with female supremacy so I would not say I have a feminist impulse since I don’t believe that women are better than men.”

    This is the sentence from Advocates Under Authority (written by Gabriella) that precedes the one you (Cane Caldo) quote in the current post. Now, I realize a lot of what a person is truly trying to say may easily be lost in cyberspace conversation, because we are missing the benefits of non-verbal communication cues, etc. However, that being said, I have to re-read most of what you write, Gabriella, because it is so terribly confusing to me. The Bible says that out of our heart, our mouth speaks, so this leads me to believe your heart is actually very confused.

    If you were my little sister, I would speak to you in the way I have previously on this blog. You profess to be my Christian sister, and therefore, it is all the more important, given our mandate as Christians to always be ready to teach each other (iron sharpening iron) and learn from each other. It is in that spirit that I speak here; with sisterly love for you in Christ.

    Faith is believing actively what you do not see.

    What bothers me about your posts about all these things you are “marinating” over is that there appears to be a lack of blind faith in your Creator that HE ALREADY GOT THINGS RIGHT! You do not need to intellectualize them; you do not need to over-analyze His commands and try and make yourself “understand” them: you only need accept them, receive them by faith alone, and then OBEY them. Unconditionally. Just as you would a command or request from your earthly husband (by faith that God has given him earthly authority over you for your own benefit, as Cane Caldo has mentioned).

    Your job is not to figure anything out, but rather to hear the Word of God (the Bible) and obey according to your current knowledge of His Word. You spend hours poring over texts in addition to the Bible; I would recommend that you read about the dream the Lord gave me in a post called “Sonador” on my blog and deduce from there what you ought to be putting into your mind right now.

    Further, as nice as it is that you seek conversation in the blogs of the so-called “manosphere” in MEN’S circles, I would advise you to cease doing this immediately. If you have a question or a concern about spirituality, the Bible, or a topic on the manosphere, I would go immediately and ASK YOUR OWN HUSBAND. You said he is a hero to you. Does he know that? Does he feel that he is your hero? Begin to ask him about all matters pertaining to men (he is a man, your man for life, after all) – it will foster conversation between the two of you that may be unexpectedly pleasing to him (and you, but it’s not being done for YOU, but for him).

    Although you say you “marinate” about submission, you are not sold out to submission in heart. I do not know you very well, only by what you have revealed of your heart here. However, I would suggest that you place yourself in an emotional state of submission by going to your own husband for EVERYTHING. You have a question about men? Ask your husband. You have a question pertaining to a topic you read on the manosphere once? Ask your husband. You want to know what to fix for supper? Ask your husband. You want to know what color makeup to wear today? Ask your husband. You have a question about God and His character and design for your life? I don’t care if you think your husband is not up to par spiritually – ask your own husband anyway.

    Ridiculous? No. This would be an exercise in practicing (by faith) what God has commanded you to do, which is to depend entirely upon Him and your husband as provision, Lord and lord. Please take it from a gal who wasn’t able to place myself under my own father’s authority (it was perverse, and he was sexually, emotionally, verbally and physically abusive to me when I was a child). It has taken DECADES to understand the true character of God the Father. You had the luxury of having a “normal” father compared to mine, yet you did not place yourself under his authority.

    Now, you are a married woman and a mother. Praise God! Now, you have the opportunity to truly place yourself under the authority of God the Father and your earthly lord (your husband) by your own volition for the first time in your life, blindly by faith. I hate to say “fake it ’till you make it” like the AA people, but it’s not bad advice. Begin to re-train your mind to trust your God that you can trust your husband to be your earthly lord, protector, provider.

    Maybe you already do these types of things, but from what I’m reading, it seems doubtful. I agree with Cane Caldo’s assessment that your mind is divided and tossed two and fro by every wind. You are reading too much stuff – stop it – and just read the Word of God and listen to your husband. Please, dear sister, stop trying to analyze everything to pieces and just ask God for the faith to believe and obey.

  17. @Elspeth

    You foolishly give her cover here.

    I think you’re [CC: Gabriella] right that you bare your feelings too freely online. I used to do that but I’ve learned the danger. The truth is that we are all very one dimensional online, and what appears to be an open invitation to analyze correctly can often be wrong.

    The danger is inherent in immodesty, i.e., baring yourself; which is precisely what has happened on my blog. Gabriella is LUCKY that I am not a Chaldean, and instead have given her an opportunity to repent of the disgrace she has brought on herself, her husband, and her father. She squanders even that, and even the wise words of SongTwoEleven. Now she wishes to cover herself back up in her own blog, and act as if I treated her poorly by spurning her emotional advances.

    That said, I think what has happened here was a conflating of your life as described before you converted to your life now, which are vastly different. None of us is exactly who we were before coming to Christ. Those of us who have doubts (some people’s doubts nag them more than others) can appear double-minded but that isn’t always the case.

    The conflation occurs because there is no REPENTANCE between the former life and current. It is, in fact, one conflated life OF HER CHOOSING. Elspeth, did you read her comments? She is not in doubt: She ONLY argued for independence of wives and daughters.

    What I actually wrote was: The best I can say is that you’re double-minded.” The bolded part is an indicator that I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. She does not appear double-minded to me: she appears FULLY REBELLIOUS of the natural order of families; specifically obedience of daughters to fathers and wives to husbands. When called out on this she lies, and says that she is under their authority. The comments on my blog beg to differ; not only in their content (more later), but in their number and fervor.

    What I don’t understand is how you, Elspeth (whom I respect and honor even publicly) can be so blind.

    @SongTwoEleven

    I am very glad to hear from you. The tragedy of agreement is that there is not much to say between us. I wonder if this is a result of the Fall?

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  20. I just saw your latest comment to me, CC.

    I stand by my original conclusion that the life before and after conversion are being conflated. Maybe I misread Gabby’s comments, but I have never got the impression that she has not repented of her past sins. Let me offer an example:

    When I returned to the faith and my husband later converted, we did our time in sackcloth and ashes. Truly we were remorseful for what we were and had done in our sin against God, and against each other.

    Still, despite all of that, we remember some of the fun we had together before we were married, in particular a vacation we took. Now, if in conversation or in a commercial this particular city or resort is mentioned and we fondly recall going to a restaurant there, does this mean that our repentance wasn’t genuine? I’ve actually thought about this a great deal.

    Unless my fondness for Gabby is clouding my judgement (I don’t think so), her mention of what she did before is just a recounting of what happened. I understand your point; that her father’s lack of faith or steering her toward a less traditional life does not justify her rebelling against him. I get that. But was she offering justification for her rebellion, or simply telling her story?

  21. @Elspeth

    Forgive the curtness, I have to hurry.

    1. Your judgment is clouded.

    2. Gabriella set out to cloud your judgment because she wants to be liked, and she’s afraid that she has to justify herself to be liked. I’m sure many people think I don’t like her. Quite the contrary.

    3. Repentance is not a one time act, and I’m not talking about putting on sackcloth and ashes, but putting on clothes of righteousness. (Elspeth: You are woefully misunderstanding my intent.)

    4. Your personal story has no bearing on this discussion, and asking for my judgment on it is foolish, and unnecessarily provocative. Don’t tempt me.

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