The Jackass Stops Here

I have waited a bit to respond, to see if Gabriella might realize what she is said, and what she continues to say. Her last few comments here were sorrowful entreatments that I don’t understand her, and that she doesn’t know how to get me to understand. For a theology-seeking Catholic, her understanding of relationships, knowledge, and sex is woefully lacking…though she definitely feels the implications. This is my final response to her pleas for understandingShe writes:

My father and husband are unfairly slandered here. Neither deserve to pay for my loose lips and emotional angst. I obviously made a critical error …perhaps out of respect for these men you could do me the courtesy of sharing this information with Elspeth privately rather than showcasing it to the world?

I was wondering whether you’d come back to clarify–as you should have–that it was YOU who slandered your father and husband. (from the husband link:)

Yes, I can admire my husband for the skills he has that I do not.

No, I don’t consider “financial provision” one of those skills that he has that I do not. Earning an income isn’t that difficult. It only takes an average intelligence and modicum of discipline. Those are things even a woman should have.

One of the reasons I find it easy to admire my husbands specific skills is because we often compete for the fun of it and he frequently beats me at certain types of sports. Painball, first-person shooters, play wrestling, certain types of card games, assembling ANYTHING. He is also really good at getting people to do things they don’t want to do. I call it his Jedi-mind tricks.

And then there is Angry Birds. Nothing frustrates me more than how freaking good he is at Angry Birds.

That was in response to a challenge from Unger (another missed soul) that doubted whether an independent-minded woman–such as you are and were claiming to be–could respect her husband. What a pathetic attempt that was to enumerate your husband’s value: First you denigrate his biblical calling to provide as something anyone can do; to make clear we know he is not special. Then you claim to respect him based on his skill in games and recreation, and his ability to get out of work. Unbelievable, truly. You don’t respect your husband, and you said so publicly and flippantly.

In your dissatisfaction you are searching for other authorities than the ones you have been provided; which is what I’ve been saying for two posts and dozens of comments. So, no: for my sake, for you sake, for the sake of my readers, and for the sake of your husband and father I will not take private what you have made public. You may wipe your mouth, but this napkin of a post will testify to your lusts.

She continues:

I don’t crave to be liked. I crave to be understood. And..I crave to understand others. I don’t think it is a sinful desire, but it has come to my attention that I risk my families reputation which isn’t fair to them.

I saw what you want when you disrobed yourself in the comments. I chose the word “liked” instead of “known” to spare you the ensuing connotations, but that was a mistake. Now, I’m not so deranged to say that what you’re after is sex…per se…but you damn well know from whence a woman’s desire for sex proceeds: the desire to be known. SongTwoEleven said it right:

Your job is not to figure anything out, but rather to hear the Word of God (the Bible) and obey according to your current knowledge of His Word. […]

Further, as nice as it is that you seek conversation in the blogs of the so-called “manosphere” in MEN’S circles, I would advise you to cease doing this immediately. If you have a question or a concern about spirituality, the Bible, or a topic on the manosphere, I would go immediately and ASK YOUR OWN HUSBAND. You said he is a hero to you. Does he know that? Does he feel that he is your hero? Begin to ask him about all matters pertaining to men (he is a man, your man for life, after all) – it will foster conversation between the two of you that may be unexpectedly pleasing to him (and you, but it’s not being done for YOU, but for him).

Although you say you “marinate” about submission, you are not sold out to submission in heart. I do not know you very well, only by what you have revealed of your heart here. However, I would suggest that you place yourself in an emotional state of submission by going to your own husband for EVERYTHING. You have a question about men? Ask your husband. You have a question pertaining to a topic you read on the manosphere once? Ask your husband. You want to know what to fix for supper? Ask your husband. You want to know what color makeup to wear today? Ask your husband. You have a question about God and His character and design for your life? I don’t care if you think your husband is not up to par spiritually – ask your own husband anyway.

Gabriella, you’re not here to seek the “truth”. You’re here to mentally masturbate because you imagine that I have the theological girth that you perceive lacking from your husband. You are, of course, suffering under imaginings of both him and I. You’re one of several Emma Bovarys of the Manosphere; conflating theology and passion until you convince yourself that you can combine them into holiness; when holiness is about keeping things separate that ought not be joined. In flits of emotional turmoil, you throw yourself into other men’s figurative beds. That is the shame you bring on your husband.

You’re replaying your Daddy Issues with me cast as the antagonist. Said another way: You want me to make you into a sort of electronic Alpha Widow, as this is what you have come to expect of men you want understanding from; that is, love. I know this because your behavior is different from the other women. They, more or less, treat me like a friend. You, though, are not satisfied to agree, or disagree, or engage in an earnest discourse; reasoning together in friendship. You want me to take you; it’s the fight you make of it, mixed with your openness, that makes your intentions plain.

She finishes:

My husband is a great man. A hero..actually. He deserves nothing but respect.

Well all he has is you. What are you going to do about?

You’re a liar, and an emotional slut, Gabriella. Turn from this path before an unrepentant Rodolphe Boulanger finds you. Depart from me.

13 thoughts on “The Jackass Stops Here

  1. Mr. Cane Caldo, what I am about to share, I share with good intent, and not to “shame” another sister. I share with you what I have written in response to Gabriella after her abrupt response to me yesterday. Yes, it is public: it is easy enough to peruse the web and find her blog and read what we are writing; we are not personally emailing each other and never were. Further, she has opened herself to both advice and criticism by sharing publicly with you and on other blogs. I believe I am in no violation of scripture.

    Here is my response:

    “Oh, sister. I took an entire twenty-four hour period to pray and think about what I was writing to you, as I am just another human being, albeit a human being with some experience and wisdom just by virtue of having been on this planet for over four decades, but moreover, for being in relationship with the Living God for awhile now.

    Lo, you have taken but a few moments to respond to me, and when you did respond, there is just the odor of personal defensiveness toward my comments.

    I did not say you were “sinful” for talking to men on the manosphere; I suggested strongly that you stop doing this in order to help your own husband and YOURSELF, which is something you should be interested in doing, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Regarding rejecting submission, you have stated clearly that you have rebelled against both your earthly father and your heavenly Father at one point or another, and you have also stated that you are “marinating” on the topic of submission. That really doesn’t speak of it being a command from God in your mind – that reminds me of some of the children I’ve been a Nanny for, instead. They hear my command, but they really don’t agree with my wisdom, so they choose not to immediately obey, because they think my command isn’t TRUE and GOOD for them! Ultimately, they suffer consequences for disobedience, for even if they obey “late”, they have shown their rebellious heart condition.

    We are all sinful. I am not concerned with your state of sinfulness as much as I am concerned that you SEE your own state.”

    You see, she has the opportunity to listen to an older woman who has walked a road that (at least partially) that she is walking or has walked.

  2. I suspect a lot of this comes from an inability, for whatever reason, to trust fully. I see it in what is said, in the projected fear, and in the defensiveness. I don’t know that these admonishments, well intentioned as they may be, will ever change that. It is sad, but I think that is at the root of all the justification and confusion.

  3. @CL: Yes. Absolutely a lack of trust. That’s precisely why I have tried (well intentioned, as you said) to speak to this woman as a fellow believer in Christ, who is the only One who can heal her distrust of men (or Himself, for that matter).

    You know a bit of my story from conversing with me on different blogs, but regardless of her lack of trust, her father held a POSITION of authority (whether or not he abused or neglected the God-given position) and her husband now holds a POSITION of authority, as well. I find it truly strange that a woman who has had military training (if that is what I read correctly from Cane’s posts) has trouble understanding a given position of authority. In fact, the word for submit in Ephesians IS a military term – of voluntarily placing oneself in a position of lesser authority and being pliable and yielded to the will of the superior authority.

    I erroneously thought, as a woman who also could not ever find it to submit to my father’s POSITION of authority (because he did, indeed, do much to abuse and neglect it) that I would be able to speak with some manner of power of testimony to Gabby. I simply could not wrap my mind around submitting to an abusive person. I now know that it was the enemy, and not God, who allowed and enticed my father into behaving the way that he did, and abdicating all fatherly Godly responsibility in his position of authority. I was totally unprotected, and the enemy had a field day with me as a child.

    Having done a great deal of work in order to read, hear and receive the absolute Truth of Who God says He is in scripture, as a father, and also His directives to earthly fathers…this original post about fatherly and husbandly covering truly interested me. When I saw that Gabby was revolted at this idea, I became passionate, because had I known years ago what I know now, I would have trusted God much more fully in my younger years and saved myself and those around me a tremendous amount of pain and suffering in relationships.

    Oh, well. I have sown seed. That is the end of my responsibility, I suppose. May God water it and blow the wind of His Ruach upon it, and feed it with the Light that only He can.

  4. With apologies to CC, gonna add a sidebar comment prompted by Gabriella’s mention of competing with her husband in Angry Birds and other games/sports. It is my experience and observation that competition is usually bad for man-woman relationships even if allegedly done for “fun”. One of the things competition does is feed the ego and those susceptible to getting their egos fed will often put it ahead of commitment. Think for example of the wife who feels she is in competition with her husband over provision and where that often leads. I don’t know the Bible well so I wonder if there is some basis there for this observation. I do know men don’t want to compete with their wives when they get home following competition at work and I have noticed that women can have a hard time shutting off that competitive switch from office to home. A woman who is feeling competitive likely isn’t fully in submission and indeed submission can be a rather foreign concept to a woman who is used to competing.

  5. @RA

    No apologies necessary, and thanks for reading.

    Good comment. The aspect of bringing competition home from work is one I hadn’t specifically considered.

    Small levels of intramarital competition can serve to get all manner of juices flowing. The key for the man is: Win. Sometimes, though , we don’t even want to compete for fun, and on some other things we don’t ever want to compete–say, breadwinning. Even so: Win. Women, if your man can’t manage to win, whether from fatigue of strength or spirit: Lose.

  6. Cane, what I think you aren’t understanding is that women sometimes write or say things from a place of emotion without first thinking them through. Later they wish they could take the more foolish things they say back, so you should be more accommodating of women when they do this. Interestingly the Bible actually covers this in Numbers 30.

    Oh. Never mind.

  7. @Dalrock

    She tried very hard to seduce me into the position to be able to fulfill that accommodation, but I must demure, even if she cannot.

    “Oh, this is just all blog-talk. It means nothing, and CC is making a big deal out of nothing.”, one might say. One might be a deceiver.

    “The digital environment is not a parallel or purely virtual world, but is part of the daily experience of many people, especially the young,” Benedict said in his message. “Social networks are the result of human interaction, but for their part they also reshape the dynamics of communication which builds relationships: a considered understanding of this environment is therefore the prerequisite for a significant presence there.”

    Pope Benedict, three days ago.

  8. I was just pointing out the irony; this all started with Gabriella objecting to Numbers 30 because she is a strong independent woman. Now she wishes not to be held accountable to her own words, which is exactly what Numbers 30 is about.

  9. @Dalrock

    Yes. That was the point of these two posts. This whole exercise has been about getting her to see that, and for her benefit; to direct her to the truth of that scripture. I tried to chase her to the truth. SongTwoEleven beckoned her to the truth. You now have pointed it out plainly to her.

    To no avail. Now she’s all over Zippy’s blog; begging for his attention. Meanwhile, her husband languishes because “he’s not interested in theology” (like “I want to be holy by my own understanding” Gabriella*), and perhaps is not a Christian. How selfish, and disobedient! She wants good things for herself more than she does her husband; not understanding that if the head dies, the whole body dies. My God… Woman: Get off the Internet and win your husband without a word!

    My response to you on Pope Benedict, I must admit, was not for your benefit either, but still hers because she has retreated into the notion that what she or anyone says here doesn’t really matter, and any who treats her negatively is taking it too seriously. Benedict thinks it can genuinely win souls. Of course, she smashes her own defense of “seeking understanding” when she says this; since the understanding cannot be serious if the criticism can’t be serious.

    And, so, the rich woman went away sad, for she had many blogs to read.

    *Emma Bovary to a tee.

  10. I began a general practice several years ago when my old blog was experiencing lots of traffic: That habit has proved invaluable: Never blog when my husband is at home and awake. Never be on the Internet when my daily list is undone. Never be on the Internet when someone is trying to talk to me.

    It dramatically reduced the number of blogs I allowed myself to read (and certainly restricted the numbers I have time to comment on.

    I know this might seem peripheral and irrelevant to the conversation you guys are having, but it really isn’t. The less time you spend digesting the voices of your virtual “friends” the less sway they have over your thinking. Spend time talking to those whose thoughts matter most to you, and it makes all the difference.

    And yes, I am specifically avoiding talking of Gabriella directly. She knows my thoughts and criticisms full well, and I refuse to interject publicly as I consider you both among my friends.

  11. @Elspeth

    I know this might seem peripheral and irrelevant to the conversation you guys are having, but it really isn’t.

    Yes, I agree: it’s not peripheral, but at the heart of the matter.

    And yes, I am specifically avoiding talking of Gabriella directly.

    Haha! Come now, Elspeth: That was the worst attempt to not talk about what is front of our faces. I can only congratulate you as you are truly unpracticed at passive-aggressiveness, and that speaks well of you.

  12. Christian women (maybe all women?) tend to hold their husbands up to the standard that they imagine other husbands meet. In other words, Amelia Christian will imagine that Susie Christian’s husband is the sort of “spiritual leader” that her husband isn’t. This is sometimes spurred by Susie needing the other women to think this of her husband; sometimes it’s simply that Susie refuses to speak of her husband in any but a positive light. So Mr. Susie Christian becomes the standard that all men in that group must meet, but of course her assumptions about him are a projection of her desires. I’ve noticed this is really a particular problem among traditional women who claim to care deeply for submission (based on the group my family circulates in). Somehow, their husbands never meet the standard for “Godliness” (ugh – hate that!) and so they ask for prayer – their families aren’t thriving because the husband is not the spiritual leader, always with deep concern for the husband’s spiritual condition – and I’m certain they believe they’re concerned in that way. But at bottom it’s actually about making him conform to her spiritual standards. It’s always easiest when unhappy to look out rather than in.

    I’ve had numerous women ask me how I “made” my husband lead and it’s always based on an assumption they’ve made about him based on my respect of him. I’ve never been sure how to cope with this, being the wife of a man who some women project onto and also unwilling to tear down the idol they’ve made. At the same time, I feel for their husbands with the constant expectations and standards that no man could possibly meet. There is no pliability, softness, winsomeness, gratitude, delight in the attentions she is given, nothing but standards that are imagined to be from God. I think it’s based on fear because we think it’s all up to us. Our children will not follow God if husband doesn’t lead “right.” But the structure of headship/submission has a great deal to do with developing a child’s right view of God, much more than the “Godliness” of the parents.

    I did see your comment to me on Zippy’s blog, Cane, and I appreciate it. I just didn’t want to continue to use his blog for my own purposes. I too have been told that I have Catholic sensibilities. I’m not sure what that means exactly – I’m simply hungry for truth, goodness, and beauty and I don’t see it in my tradition (although I’m not sure you could call mega low-church evangelical traditional – I think probably not.)

  13. Let us be real about the whole series of comments and posts between CC and Gabby. Shall we? Gabby made a comment that insulted CC’s knowledge and in particular his leadership of his daughters.

    [[Gabriella September 15, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    That is a very serious claim and I’d like to know what makes you so sure of your interpretation. If you are wrong you are very wrong and you may be preventing your daughters from fulfilling a call from God that does not involve living under a mans direct authority.]]

    Well well well well there lady! Now CC is pissed! As one reads through his comments he is more and more emotional about anything that Gabby says. She eggs him on and he reacts. This comes to the post entitled “The Jackass Stops Here” where CC names and shames everything that Gabby has done or said over the last 4 days.

    There are many things to name and shame. Nothing that CC says is untrue. But isn’t CC being over emotional and quite the “girl” here? I can’t help but think so.

    Is Gabby not modded? Mod her out and focus on the real intellectual questions within your comments. Allowing an “emotional slut” to out herself on your blog so you can throw a “s*it fit” about it seems quite beneath you.

    [CC: I strongly doubt you ever esteemed me. People only say things like “it seems quite beneath you”, with they don’t mean it. Especially when that follows up things like, “I can’t help but…” Sure you can: shut your mouth. Regardless, I do not write for you, to gain your esteem, or to preserve it. By the way: you’re still modded.]

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