We Love the Impossible and Ruinous Lie

I saw several links coming from SunshineMary’s blog, and so I went to see what had been said about me. All good, it turns out.

While I was there, I read her latest post. It’s about her husband not replacing the broken dishwasher because she repeatedly used it to abuse the kitchen knives after he’d pointed it out to her several times. One of the comments drew the ire of everyone there, and it baffled the commenter. He thought he was saying the plain truth that everyone knows.

Thankful Husband said:

I’m probably missing some of the things that make this very important message possible (thank you SSM), but here is the backstory that makes this possible:
1) she has to know you truly do love her and are there to protect her, care for her, and have her best interest at heart. That regardless she is truly more important than yourself and you are willing to die daily and quite literally for her.

This is the prevailing wisdom all across the landscape of America; whether among Christians, or otherwise. Here’s why it’s nonsense.

-A person cannot literally know another person’s mind. This rules out the ability for her to know how he feels about her. She has to judge his actions; which are not a outgrowth of his feelings, but of his decisions.

-He’s talking about obedience to feelings; both to her own and to his. Aside from the impossibility of knowing his feelings (since she can’t truly know his mind), it should be obvious that obedience to feelings is ruinous.

-Love is not a thing felt, but a thing done. So, in addition to it being an impossible and ruinous act for her to know his true feelings, it’s also a total waste because whatever those feelings are, they aren’t love.

We were all raised to think exactly what Thankful Husband said above, and that is a massive roadblock to peace in marriage. It sets up a no-win situation for the man, and permanent dissatisfaction for the woman. She’ll keep wondering why this ideal–an ideal that is so ubiquitous that no one needs to explain it–is always just out of reach. She wonders why she just can’t quite get to that impossible and ruinous lie, and it’s driving her mad. Let me rephrase that into Manosphere language:

The Impossible and Ruinous Lie is The Hamster, and The Hamster is born of the English word love.

One of the serious oversights of the discussions of sexual relations in the Manosphere is that men are just as affected by The Hamster as women. It does get discussed, but I don’t think it’s ever been tied together the way I’m doing here. What Thankful Husband is trying to talk about when he says love in the quoted comment is actually compassion and sexual desire for one person, and at the same time. Resolve yourself to never use the word love except as an action done for the benefit of its object, and to instead choose a more specific term:

  • compassion
  • desire
  • fraternity
  • benevolence
  • pity
  • honor
  • passion
  • charity
  • devotion
  • fidelity
  • sex
  • affection

Etc. Then, pay attention as your thinking changes. Things that were confusing will be clear. Decision-paths that once seemed fraught with unseen peril can now be charted. Our language and culture have debased all these words by smelting them all together, and we have been debased by that process.

Mixed up in all of this is the justification process, which is what is normally referred with the idiom “Hamster”. What is justification? It’s making the undesirable desirable; whether it’s convincing yourself about a decision you’re really not sure of, or it’s engaging in a behavior that is counter-intuitive to normal behavior. When it’s bad it can be lies that you tell yourself. When it’s good it can be unimpeachable compassion and unwarranted affection. Because of the way the English word love has been counterfeited, the lies will seems just as plausible as the truth.

I am convinced that this counterfeiting of the term was not an accident, but a deliberate plot of Satan. It’s remarkable how well it tracks with the corruption of Eve and then Adam in Genesis. Compare: “Don’t you want to be like God?”, to, “Don’t you want love?”

But why? Corrupt the word love, corrupt the thinking about love. Corrupt the thinking about love, corrupt the act of love. Corrupt love, sex falls. Corrupt sex, marriage falls. Corrupt marriage…generations fall.

When you are in the habit of defining love only as an action done for the benefit of its object, and your feelings and impulses are given more clearly defined terms, dealing with a rebellious or hypergamous[1] woman can be done from a position of understanding and options, instead of blindly groping for the loving thing to do.

-He can express compassion by ignoring her bad behavior when she deserves to be rebuked. She won’t see this as compassion on her own because she can only judge actions, remember? He’ll have to prove it to her by bringing this to her attention when she won’t stop running her mouth. Sow forbearance, tear up the weeds, and reap meekness. This will also grow sexual desire in both of them. First she’ll blaze, “You’ve got some balls to talk to me like that…” that will smolder into “…show me.” Hypergamy harnessed.

-He can express sexual desire by making a strong push towards the bedroom. This is tough for women on first blush, because everyone, everywhere, has been telling them that men are bad. They only want one thing (you know: S. E. X.) and that men are bad because they want the S-word. Women don’t unless they’re sluts, and even if you’re married if you give it up while you want something you might, kinda, maybe be whorish because in the end we’re all just consumers, right? The truth is that she wants a man to take her; to ravish her and rejoice in her body. They are married, and that makes him that man. It is also compassionate to sooth her aching needs.

-He can express benevolence by giving her what she wants. This is a very appealing option to women when they hear it. The man too, is inclined to do this as he gets to fulfill his role as provider. It’s also extraordinarily dangerous for either the man or wife who still believes the in Impossible and Ruinous Lie. In that case he will confirm in her that she can behave badly to get what she wants.

“Pssh! Oh, well, Cane: You just described Game.”

No it’s not, and here’s why.

All of this can only be understood if a man actually loves his wife; if he is resolved to put her needs before his regardless of her behavior. And a man can only sustain that love–that action–if he is himself sustained by God, who is love. A man doesn’t always want to ignore his wife’s behavior, and they usually don’t want to fight about it. He does these things for her sake (including fight), that she might genuinely benefit. This cannot be faked. We are spiritual beings, and the spirits will out.

If he instead approaches these  from the spirit of self-serving–of narcissism and the rest of the Dark Triad traits–that will be discovered, either covertly or overtly. In the short term, it will probably get you laid. That’s not the Christian man’s goal; not even the married Christian man. His goal is to fulfill his scriptural responsibility to lead and love his wife. What’s more: You are the leader, and she is the follower. You will set the pattern. What does she learn from you, if you lead by self-righteousness and pride? How will she lead your children?

How will she not be led astray? If you are successful, she will worship you. If you are unsuccessful, then she will worship herself.

[1] Short refresher: Hypergamy is a good thing.

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28 thoughts on “We Love the Impossible and Ruinous Lie

  1. Pingback: A dozen links. Plus, I miss The Patriarchy more each day, don’t you? | Sunshine Mary

  2. The male hamster is the best explanation for the spinning TH was doing. The male hamster is more freakish than the female if the male has some degree of understanding that words mean things. Because the man will take logical approaches to discourse…but only after altering the discourse. That too is a cheap trick and is “arguing like a girl” but it is different in that the man will take great satisfaction in the logic-seeming part of his argument. he sees as a simple example that he has proven

    If A=B and B=C then A=C. How can someone penetrate that third grade basic rhetoric? But he fails to see that he slipped in a D in place of the A by omitting or inserting a term like always or never or some extreme dichotomy. I am not sure who is the more closed minded, the female or male hamster. The female hamster is emotionally self interested. But the male hamster is emotionally and sexually (even if metaphorically like “the lift’) self interested. that locks that little bugger down tight, and the G-forces of spinning is so fast time and space are bent.

    The corruption of language by emotionally defining terms and forgetting that words mean specific things is a sickness on our culture (anglo culture). Language languishes is un-pin-down-able-ness. It always will in the woman’s mind because the paste wont go back in the tube. that is why when Cane says “She has to judge his actions” it is key.

    In past times, 10 years ago or so, my wife would often say to me “not until we put God at the center of our marriage will it heal”. It would put me, a newer Christian, on my heels every time. Only with red pill lenses and a degree of aloofness adopted was I able to hear what she was really saying as “”not until I FEEL AS IF we put God at the center of our marriage will it heal”. This is the bondage that TH is under, a slave to his wife’s emotions which leads to what his calling her being submissive is really him paying to play by performing to her ever shifting standards.

    eventually he and every man under that regime will realize, the standards change constantly. The hoops are triangles then dodecahedron shaped, then flaming then spinning, on and on. And HE CANNOT do it. At best she agrees to cooperate even when all her right buttons are not pushed. That leaves them both unsettled. But men are more long suffering, we tolerate living lesser lives than what we’d choose because male pragmatism says “I have my kids, my stuff, my work, I laugh sometimes, it ain’t so bad”

    Dang-it Cane, i was already wallowing in alpha widow muck then you go and write this.

    OT

    I was thinking about you when I was driving and listening to music (that sounds too weird, yesterday I was thinking about arugula,so there), because I heard this song on my shuffled thumb drive of music. I’m sure you know it anyway, based on some of the specificstuff.

  3. Maybe my woman is better than most….be she quite literally knows and feels loved and protected…it’s not unattainable at all. I’m a red pill guy, but I stop about 70% of the way in.. I don’t take women’s hamster’s or emotions or intelligence as far, or as short as many of you. I feel sorry for some of you. How it must feel to have a woman you can never count on unless you keep her in place except by complete control. Whatever you describe about me and my marriage is completely innaccurate…so that means either I or my wife are of better quality than the average (which may have some truth to it) or your thesis is wrong. Don’t know how else to say it. 2+2=4….so either we or our marriage is unique in some way or you are off in your thesis. My wife would rush hades with me with a bucket of water…but not only because she knows she has to but because she would WANT to. I think a great many of you are trying to over compensate for the obvious unbalanced approach (downright untrue approach) of the christian feminists…but you end up being just as wrong.

  4. “Maybe my woman is better than most

    This is entirely possible. If this is true, then you owe praise to God only, for we know that “a prudent wife is from the Lord”, and that it’s not something you’ve done to earn it. It was a gift.

    ….b[ut] she quite literally knows and feels loved and protected…

    Stop right there. You simply can’t know that in the way you know how you feel right now because you do not possess her mind; you have no access to it. Even if you did, you wouldn’t be her accessing her own mind. You’re an outsider. Even if she tells you what she is feeling about you, then what you are doing is trusting and believing what she says, and trusting and believing that what she says matches the feeling you associate with those words.

    Totally different example: You don’t see red in the way I see red. We have different eyes. We both call the same colors “red”, but we don’t really know what we see. If I saw what you see as red, as you see blue, you wouldn’t know the difference.

    Now imagine this on a sliding scale, where our sight of red really does overlap quite a lot, but where red becomes orange to you, I still see red. Further, imagine where you see orange, I not only see red, but individual red and yellow dots. Now we have an example of where we can understand that you and I are seeing the same thing–even if we’re really not–because we both believe that red and yellow make orange.

    I’m a red pill guy but I stop about 70% of the way in..

    I’m not. There went at least 70% of your assumptions.

    I don’t take women’s hamster’s or emotions or intelligence as far, or as short as many of you. I feel sorry for some of you. How it must feel to have a woman you can never count on unless you keep her in place except by complete control.

    Just…read my posts.

    Whatever you describe about me and my marriage is completely innaccurate

    As in some degree it must be, yes, because of the thing where you see red, and I see blue, and we’re seeing the same thing. What’s more important is that I did not talk about your marriage. Not one bit. You’re bringing things into the discussion which are extraneous…unless this is your way of asking me to dissect your marriage as you have explained it. Women do this sometimes. They want to see how my paradigm fits their particular situation, but they don’t want to seem like they care. Their solution is to introduce their own experience and situation as a dare. Will I dare trespass upon their precious beliefs? Will I call them a liar? Yes, I will. And I’ll do it making mistakes all along the way, as only a sinner can. That can’t be my concern. I do the sowing, God takes care of the actual growth.

    …so that means either I or my wife are of better quality than the average (which may have some truth to it) or your thesis is wrong. Don’t know how else to say it. 2+2=4….so either we or our marriage is unique in some way or you are off in your thesis. My wife would rush hades with me with a bucket of water…but not only because she knows she has to but because she would WANT to.

    I have no reason to doubt that she is of better quality. That is my theory. It’s a theory that I got when I chose to believe the Bible (over what I could figure out on my own), and when I chose to believe the little bit you’ve said about your marriage.

    It’s a situation where: Not only do I believe the Bible when it says that orange thing is actually red and yellow, but I know that red and yellow make orange BECAUSE of the Bible. You seem to think either your wife is special “just ’cause”, or that you have done something right, i.e., you earned it.

    I see this from men in bad marriages, too. They say, “But I’ve read her the Bible, and she’s not getting better! I can’t do that to turn her into a better wife. I need to do something else, and Game works!” Well, scripture doesn’t say to wash your woman with the water of the word, and you will make her clean. It says to wash your woman, and the water will make her clean. This Water is alive, and it does the cleaning in It’s good time. Sometimes our Lord tarries, and sometimes He tarries so that we get better at washing. We hope that He tarries because otherwise we’ve missed Him entirely.

    You’re nominally positing that it could be that your wife is of better quality, but you’re actually alluding to your own credit of “figuring it out”. It’s a credit you do not deserve, just like the Game folks do…which is idolatry. You’re arguing for Feeling Game.

    I think a great many of you are trying to over compensate for the obvious unbalanced approach (downright untrue approach) of the christian feminists…but you end up being just as wrong.

    Again: Just read my blog.

  5. One thing I’ve learned about manosphere sites like yours just like the christian blogs (where feminism is amock) is that no one concedes anything. Quite frankly, people get pissed at me on both of them…so I’ll take that as I must be on the right path. I read the “christian sites” and go hug and kiss my wife and say a prayer to God thanking Him for her. She comes and reads these sites and does the same in reverse…seriously I cannot grasp how either side of you can’t see the Truth. Your dancing around what orange and red are just to get out of calling red, red and orange, orange. Seriously, it sounds like Gregoire trying to describe submission…no better song and dance show found anywhere.

    Quite frankly we are all deserving of death….but yes, we can do something right. Sorry if actions don’t count for squat then what’s the point. You sound like something out of Eccliestes, except you never find the happy medium of there is a time for everything under the sun.

    I’m honestly ready to give up on all the sites…what’s the point when your at A and they are at Z and everybody is more focused on A & Z then where God is actually calling them to be. Nowhere in yesterday’s post did I call for you to supplicate her feelings. What I did say is if you are a godly man and a man…she’s going to have a lot easier time submitting… and yet that conspiracy talk? You guys are nuts!

  6. What I did say is if you are a godly man and a man…she’s going to have a lot easier time submitting…

    This is a lie from hell sir.
    being a Godly man will NECESSARILY run afoul with her wishes, time to time, and on big things, things that will make her FEEL you are not being a Godly man.
    You either do whats right, or you do what you think will make her FEEL you have done whats right.
    Head in sand about always being on the same page means that either you are 1 in a million (and her), or that you supplicate. There is no middle ground on this. It is not my job to make it hard or easy for her to submit. Its my job to do my job as head.

    Cane, block my comments the whirlpool spins the other way south of the equator.

  7. @Thankful Husband

    I don’t hate you, and I do concede things. In fact, I conceded your argument that your wife is probably better than most…twice. You have imagined my hate, and you have ignored my concessions. Those are lies, TH.

    “What I did say is if you are a godly man and a man…she’s going to have a lot easier time submitting… “

    Surely you’re aware that there are bastards with good submissive wives. How can you tell the difference between them and yourself? Is it because your wife says so?

    This can only sound reasonable if you don’t actually believe the Bible is a real authority for you; that it’s not actually good for all instruction, as it claims to be. If you believe the Bible, you know prudent wives are gifts, not rewards.

  8. You must all work for the government because that is what your reasoning is like. If what we do does not matter then why do you even bother with anything? If what you do has no difference on your wife what’s the point…seriously, you all must have terrible marriages and be looking for a way to justify that your wife treats you aweful. If you have no responisiblity in her actions then you are off the hook…that has to be your reasoning as a coping mechanism. Yes, there are good men whose wives do that…I was one for a long while. But I had to grow and change also, and become a better man. Seriously, you guys spin the Bible as much as the feminists do. I feel like I’m reading something put out by the Obama campaign. There’s so much BS it is hard not to laugh at it.

  9. @TH

    ” If what we do does not matter then why do you even bother with anything? If what you do has no difference on your wife what’s the point’

    Because the Lord of all Creation took on puny flesh, and revealed Himself for the whole world to see. He subjected Himself to ridicule, poverty, torture, and death so that I and everyone might live with Him forever. While I’m here on this festering ball of dirt, He’s commanded me to a few simple tasks of which He knows I am poorly equipped to handle, but He has promised to supplement with His Holy Spirit. Among those simple tasks is the requirement if I am married, that I love my wife as He loved all of us; giving my life for her sake even though she does not earn it, and even though I myself am not able to save her; yet he promises salvation for all those who keep the faith.

    Now: Tell me your answer again.

  10. I respectfully disagree. I do believe our actions not only greatly effect our wives actions and reactions to us (you sow what you reap) but that my wife does both deserve it and earn it. As I hope I do. While I agree we are to do no matter what the other does, I also know in our sinful human state that is immensely easier when it is not just a requirement but a desire. I want my wife not to submit just because she is required, but because she desires to do so. I somehow place a higher value on her and a higher value on my actions than you do. I agree that I cannot save her, but scripture makes it very clear my role, especially as the husband, is vital to her faith and salvation.

  11. @TH

    We still disagree, but now you are really reading what I am saying, and saying what you think. I am encouraged!

    “I do believe our actions not only greatly effect our wives actions and reactions to us (you sow what you reap)

    Unquestionably.

    Now: What was sown, what is reaped, and Who sowed it?

    “I also know in our sinful human state that is immensely easier when it is not just a requirement but a desire.”

    Yes, precisely. All these things work together, TH. Including this desire vs. requirement (this is HUGE, but more later, after you respond.) and including the answers to the above question.

    “I want my wife not to submit just because she is required, but because she desires to do so.”

    As we all do; as we were all made to desire.

    ” I somehow place a higher value on her and a higher value on my actions than you do.”

    Not just as I do, TH, but as scripture says you, and her, and I say we have. YET, you still value her…somehow.

    As concerning higher value ofher: This “somehow” is your reflection of Christ’s love; that redeems what to all appearances is not worth redeeming, but regardless you love her just because she is yours.

    As concerning your actions: Your higher value is pride. Luke 17:

    “7 “Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? 8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’

    As it pertains to you and your wife, God is the master, you are the servant, and your wife is the sheep. How should you speak of your shepherding? It’s in bold. Now, if we keep the faith, Christ has said that He will say, “Well done, you good and faithful servant.” But that is His business; not yours. We hope in that. We should not proclaim it.

    This is key because in this way you and I as husbands (His servants over His flocks) please our Lord’s desire that we submit out of desire, and not just our of requirement. Pride short circuits that blessing we bestow on God; which He desires at least as much as we desire it from our wives.

    See, what was sown was a man, a nearly dead seed, and it was plowed into lifeless but fertile ground, your wife. God is the Farmer, and He sends the water and the sunshine that makes an inert seed and good earth work together to become fruitful. It is stupid hubris for the seed to say, “Look what I have done to the ground! Through my efforts have come life!”, and it would be foolishly arrogant for the soil to say, “Look what I have done to this seed. See how it blooms!”

    Especially when we recognize that the Farmer made the seed and the ground, too.

  12. You still crack me up…you sound so sound in your theology but yet still have found great fault in my assertion that men should be men and godly men at that and that by doing so our wives will find it much easier to submit. I’ve never heard so many words spoken to agree and disagree with me at the same time. My yes has been yes the whole time. My no, no. You my friend are the one calling red, different shades of red and orange differrent shades of orange…but somehow I am not saying things as I mean them. Seriously, no wonder the feminists won’t convert…you guys are impossible to pin down!

  13. @Thankful Husband

    You’re right I find fault with it.

    I think you’re just too uneducated to understand the difference between:

    “God is good, and I love my wife”

    and

    “My wife is good because I’m good.”

    Now I will make some assumptions about you. You weren’t catechized. You probably went to public school. You think becoming a Christian is some combination of baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and asking Jesus to be your personal lord and savior, or confirmation. You think the life of Christianity is being good, and doing good.

    Your yes is not your yes, TH. You don’t know what you’re saying. You’re a spiritual lunatic chuckling about this “God stuff” while you say, “My yes is my yes, hur-hur-hur; because you heard it at Sunday School, or some men’s retreat. At best you’re a babe. You have an infantile understanding of the Gospel, and scripture; which is why I chose to speak to you in colors, you child. They are terms you can understand.

    That’s the charitable explanation. Regardless: You’re in idolatry. You may tell people you’re a Christian, as the ancient people of God did, but by your words I can tell that in your dwelling there is a little household idol of yourself and your wife, as those same Jews carried kept in theirs.

    Feminists don’t convert because they are sold out. You think you can ride the fence, and serve God and yourself.

    Get off my blog.

  14. For what it is worth:
    a) you are the one who brought me here, now that you are not agreed with you’re offended!
    b)I went to private university/bible college (pretty conservative) on a academic scholarship
    c)was a full time minister for a few years
    d)was the top in my class in school
    e)did not insult you first….
    f) did marry a good woman who loves Christ and strives to live for Him
    g)her faith is better having been married to me as I have tried to live Eph 5 and all of scripture before her…Eph 5 tells me I am partially responsible for her faith as her husband.
    h)am I good? I have my days where I am. I have my days where I am not and I ask for his forgiveness, mercy and strength to be better the next day so I can better respresent Him to my wife, children and the world.

    I will get off your blog, but remember you are the one who wrote about me. Not the other way around. If you aren’t willing to let a man defend himself I wouldn’t reccommend writing about him. I learned in about 1st grade (in private christian school) don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.

    But yes in general your description of how you become a christian is spot on except you left out live a life of faith and obedience at the end. Which was what my posts where about yesterday. A husband living out his faith and obedience to serve his wife and love her as Christ loved the church. Regardless of what your blog or the manosphere tells me, the bible is my truth and I will hold to it.

  15. Resolve yourself to never use the word love except as an action done for the benefit of its object, and to instead choose a more specific term:

    Excellent advice. I’ll have to file that one.

    Thankful Husband’s assertion that a woman will submit more easily to a godly man is based on years of erroneous teaching, not on Scripture, but asking someone to toss out what they have been taught from spiritual authority (or even what they have experienced in their own life) is asking a bit much.

  16. It may be a bit much to expect it get tossed out, but I know I cannot (to my detriment at times) let that frame define the topic when it arises. I have seen it fails so many times. I’ve watched the desperate guy cling to this belief even through a crushing divorce.

    On the Family Life forums, which closed years ago, there was a guy with the telling name “Thankful Dad and Husband”. During the time there his wife filed a divorce, his named changed to Thankful Dad. But this man walked through his divorce and his post divorce STILL in the fame TH expresses. He left himself intentionally destitute, truly, and said if he had more to give he would because God called for that. He was a shattered mess of a man, and had comported himself as TH describes through a long marriage and several kids. If I believed him at face value, and I had no reason not to, he was the poster boy for what TH is saying. Same thing for my next door neighbor, a deacon in the local Baptist church, all this about serving his wife so she could love him, he was the driver of the vans that would carry men to the supplication, er, men’s conferences like PK. Wife ran off with a Salsa teacher. Cant make that crap up.

    This frame is what J and K sell. And they take men who have some flaws but are heads in their marriage and they turn them into this form of faux leadership that is easily expressed as “I lead where she indicates she wants to go”; then they describe the submissiveness of the wife! It can be no other way, because to lead her where she does not want to go would upset her, would make it difficult for her, would create in her bad feelings, and they say love doesn’t create bad feelings. Its interesting TH in one post elsewhere said he doesn’t cater to his wife’s feelings. Impossible!

    Where we are is nowhere. This is the relationship that has defined marriage in the church for a few generations. My in-laws model this perfectly, as have nearly all older Christian couples I know, from small towns, with blue collar men that farm of build, that pursue calloused work for vocation and speak of callousing things. The wife will being them a glass of tea if thy rattle the ice in the empty glass. It looks great. But the wife is in charge. And lots of time is spent either doing things that are futile, at her urging, or fixing problems created by following her lead because her lead is inconsistent and fickle, by nature.

    This idea of making it easy to submit is just close enough to correct that it is particularly dangerous. It places a motive on a man’s choices that has no business being there. Pandering.

  17. @ Cane, Empath

    I pretty much just came to the conclusion that TH is likely a natural alpha.

    Of course, natural alphas do not understand that most men have problems with women.

    Natural alphas that love their wife as Christ love the church are a girl’s wet dream — commitment from the alpha male. That’s why TH can say as natural alpha male “if I love her as Christ loved the church then it will help her become more submissive!”

    Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for every other man out there which is why he cannot understand it,… not to mention that it’s incorrect theology.

  18. @Elspeth

    Perhaps you’re right. I banned him because he is…less than truthful. I’m not sure if you’ve followed his comments at SSM’s, but he was a pastor.

    “I quit pastoring because the church was lukewarm and if I wanted to say what God was telling me to say (and I did) I was without a job. Tried it again, to do it and speak truth but subtle…couldn’t do it. So yes, I won’t ever pastor again unless it’s a church I found and have control over…a cowboy church probably. And ton I’ve lifted 1 ton flipped forklifts back on their wheels and drug full grown bulls 100 yards…don’t be so sure.”

    Catch that? If the flock of your wife is good, it’s because your work and you are good. If the flock of your church is not good, then it’s because they’re lukewarm losers.

    It was his church’s fault TH didn’t say what God wanted TH to say. Most of us Christians are crying out from a word from our Father. He claims to have been given some of those precious words, and then decided those lukewarm people didn’t deserve to hear them. Why? Because he wasn’t in control of them. We know that because if he ever pastors again, it will only be a church he has control over. Lots of questions, there.

    Why didn’t He have control over it?

    If church control is the issue, and proper leadership will be returned with submission, then why was TH’s church lukewarm?

    Who’s church is it, anyways?

    Who decides what he says: God, TH, or the congregation?

    As I said: It’s spiritual lunacy, a good bit of cowardice, and not a little idolatry.

    You’ll also see some back and forth in there between TH and Ton about who can kick who’s butt, and they’re not sure–but we should all be ready, pal.

    This man, this ordained minister of God, does not put his faith and fear into the Lord who can kill the both the body and the soul, but into his own whoop-ass-ness.

    It’s a farce. His faith is a farce. His ability to articulate the faith is a farce. There is no evidence of a transformation into Christ-likeness, but all conformity to the spirit of this age. This is anti-christ.

    Now, one of the reasons I am so sold on the idea that he is a spiritual lunatic, as opposed to being sold-out for Hell is because you can see in the comments above when I gave a full-throated declaration of Who we serve, and why, and to what ends, the tone of his comments changed. The risible content disappeared–no more assumptions about my Obamaness, or feminist talk. All that was put away in the face of clear, forceful scripture. I acknowledged that, and tried to build upon it with more scripture. I mean: There’s a Christian pastor somewhere in there, right? He must have forgotten?

    Nope, because immediately after that he resumes the false condescension about how the right things I say are what he’s said–when they are not–, and that he knows what the truth is. Bullshit. If you can’t speak back the concepts clearly, then you don’t know them. (Somebody get this guy into a homeschool!)

    So many people in the church just nod their heads when guys like TH say these things. They’ve invested A LOT of time corrupting education (both public and Christian) for the purpose of diluting the faith of the church; which is her strength.

    You can see from the comment I released from moderation that he believes I told him to go away because I “can’t take it”; when the truth is that I did it for his benefit. Nevertheless, as you and he seem to be in agreement that I should not ban him (and Empath to some small degree): I’ll let him have it.

  19. Yep, I agree with you. I’ve been arguing with him in other previous threads as well on the same points.

    I thought maybe if we understand where he’s coming from it might be possible to get through, but maybe it’s just a long shot.

  20. @Deep Strength

    “I pretty much just came to the conclusion that TH is likely a natural alpha.”

    Perhaps. I’m sure he likes to think so since he has now said it himself. People said/say that about me as well, but I let them say it. It’s been my policy to let people call me what they like.

    In that vein: He is just arguing for a different form of Game; one that church women say they like. His wife responds to him well, so he assumes that what he thinks is right. Man, there are so many things between how someone responds to what you do, and what the do-er is thinking; not to mention that she has her own choices to make, and her own thoughts. She’s not simply responding.

    So, some of this Game business makes sense to him; 70% by his estimation above. My guess is that about 100% of that 70% matches the way he thinks about himself. The 30% he disagrees with is what offends his sensibilities. Because he thinks about these things solely from the perspective of what he believes has worked for him, he’s useless.

    Ultimately, neither of these Games are worth it because we’re only here for a short time, we die, and then eternity begins. Do they work for attracting women? Sure; one for this man, and one for another. And the due reward will be here on earth. This is all specious though because nowhere is it written that a man SHOULD have a wife. Maybe there just aren’t very many good wives out there. That’s my belief. That was the apostles belief when Jesus explained marriage to them, as well. There aren’t many good husbands out there, either.

    Oh, if we just had better Game!

    Turns out: We actually need the Gospel. And that if we have faith in that, we’ll get everything else we need, too.

  21. Agreed.

    It’s very hard to see where you are wrong if the reponse everyone gives you is positive.

    in fact, that’s feminism in a nutshell for women. You go girl!

  22. As for his own alpha-tude: The guy can’t keep his story straight. The man is the intellectual equivalent of a flaming goat rodeo: It’s just one inanity after another. That is not the mark of an alpha or a Christian.

    And Alpha’s are game; in the sense that he wants to contest things, and to struggle; to really find out who the best man/idea is, and then learn from him/it to become better. He’s just not into that. He doesn’t read the posts to find out what you’ve said, and then attempt to overcome them–he just goes straight to, “I’m right!” It’s like we’re trying to have a boxing match, and he thinks the objective is to just race over to the judges and grab the title-belt.

    I disagree with Deep Strength. I think the guy is just a liar. I’m not convinced of his relation of the facts of his marriage, his tractor-flipping abilities, or that he was an actual pastor. Maybe he was or is all those things, but every time he relays his testimony I think of a purse-kept pekingese: That dog just won’t hunt.

  23. I didn’t see that part about the wife either until reading SSM’s quote either.

    Eh, that makes me question the credibility then heavily.

  24. I can see why DS said TH may be a natural alpha, and I see the point that, if TH was one, that would explain a lot. In fact Ive known some of those guys, and even one’s who are not , lets say, up to the type of discourse here to the point where they are so alpha you cannot tell if they cannot discourse, or just cannot be bothered by it. But TH has been deeply bothered by it, is totally incapable to understanding things I and others have written in multiple ways, using plain speak, using analogy, using scripture, using personal stories, he simply cannot bust out of his evangelical feminist frame.

    TH is the one category of white knight that is nearly if not impossible to joust off his horse. Like the man I described above who stayed in evangelical fem mode through and after divorce while participating in long detailed threads with me and others trying to help him see the world as it is. I was very raw then so maybe even less effective than I seem to be now.

    I understand the feelings that drive a man to start down the “my dad can beat up your dad” type stuff (I lift X lbs, I wrestle bulls, etc). It is folly but natural for men, folly because we can make shit up….duh. I get provoked sometimes when someone who IS smarter than I am (which is a complicated topical thing) says that they are. I start wanting to whip out GPAs and awards and whatever. Its utterly silly when we do that and it has no place in Christian discussions. Peacocking has no place either, but if you took that out there would be crickets and tumbelweeds

  25. At some level, though, Peacocking is pretty innate to Men. Though it needs to be kept in the “good fun” or “well in check” in most of life. (My mind goes to the worst example of peacocking in history: the wheat output claims of the communes during the Cultural Revolution in China. That only cost, oh, 5 million or so lives, right?)

    As I posted on at SSM’s place, I think TH was running into the cognitive trap of “doing” things differently than he views his actions in retrospect. He definitely preaches a lot of supplication, but a few statements here & there suggest he doesn’t operate that way in much of the rest of his life. (Taken at face value, rather than trying to read deep) His main trait is just sheer perseverance, which suggest the logical fallacy of “it turned out alright, thus what I did was correct”. When the actual understanding should be “Praise the Lord my occasionally axe-crazy wife didn’t kill me over those 12 years”. There are a number of Men that weren’t so blessed.

    This is probably why he got stuck at 70% “in” before his head exploded all over the place. He actually does a lot that would be Game-like by nature (since quite a lot of it is just simply projected confidence and drive), but he can’t accept that what he did for 12 years while his wife was a terror in the home “didn’t work”. This runs afoul of the feminized understanding of the marriage relationship, which is where things fell apart for him. (It should also be pointed out if he does as much work as he claims in building his life, his Wife really hasn’t been his first priority in a whole lot of it) Once he got stuck there, there wasn’t much hope for him coming out of it. He has a “bulletproof!!!” example of it “working” in his mind and he’ll stick to that. Accepting that it was actually his own lack of leadership that allowed the situation to persist that long might ruin him. Mostly as that rises to the “catastrophic failure” category.

    One last point. The problem with the “make it easier for her to submit” thinking is that submission is a “choice”. The only way to make that “easier” for her is either via training (Biblical washing) or increasing the consequences for not submitting. None of these are generally the “happy” choices for the Husband. If it’s something she’ll happily “submit” to, then you’ve either chosen something to please her or you’ve supplicated. There’s no real way around that. If a Husband has established a godly “Order” in the Marriage (and defends it), then it’s more an issue the Wife won’t get huffy about the small submissions, as her hypergamy is doing wonders to rationalize away any discontent. (The Hamster is never neutral)

  26. Accepting that it was actually his own lack of leadership that allowed the situation to persist

    This is good. Lack of leadership allowed the insanity to persist, indeed. (and I probably should refrain but can’t, I find specious claims about balancing hormones and the resultant axe murder behavior, this coming from me whose wife is in the first year of menopause with all its attendant bizarro world wackiness)

    But moreover (and maybe you meant this too LG) it can be the lack of leadership that is creating the an illusion of submission presently and for the future. This is rather common as Ive described among the older set, where for example my in laws and their cohort in small southern towns, Baptist church as community focal point, have the veneer of traditional ordered marriage. In fact, the women run the whole dang town, not just the homes.

    Ive been reading a fiction book set in Thailand, actually Ive been reading several different ones similarly set. (I visit there at least yearly and the society intrigues). This would be considered a VERY patriarchal society. From religion to how names are passed to dowry etc. to overt supplication by meek women towards men, etc. The book is written by an expat having lived there for 40 years and fluent in Thai language. The women control that place too. It makes me wonder sometimes about Muslim societies that are not full blown Taliban, how much power the women truly hold. All the more then that TH can have the appearance of submission while he falls under the “I will let you lead me where I tell you to go” dynamic.

    Mama is happy

  27. “One last point. The problem with the “make it easier for her to submit” thinking is that submission is a “choice”. The only way to make that “easier” for her is either via training (Biblical washing) or increasing the consequences for not submitting.”

    Dead on. Some people think that “Game” can make it easier for a woman to submit, but that isn’t true. “Game” or the Red Pill merely informs you how to appear/be attractive to women, and what to do to achieve it. You can make it easier for your wife to be attracted to you, but she must choose to submit to her husband, just as a man must choose to submit to God.

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