After my last post Okrahead had a great comment. I asked him to expand into a guest post. It’s very good.
GW commented on Dalrock, and was then addressed by Cane, on the issue of young Christian women “whoring around,” and whther are not “loving Christian fathers” are okay with it; as Cane observed GW’s “coup de grace” was that this is “foolish and worldly talk.”
This statement caused me to reflect on what “foolish and worldly talk” really is in relation to what many churches teach young women today. First, we need to be aware of what wise and spiritual talking is so we can tell the difference. In Titus 2 the apostle Paul commands that the older women are to “teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children. To be discreet, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” (Titus 2:4, 5) In 1 Timothy 5 Paul addresses some young widows who apparently wanted to be strong, independent women who didn’t need a man, ordering them “I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some have already turned aside after Satan.” (I Tim. 5:14, 15)
What I find striking is that Paul specifically forbids the actions and attitudes that lead to the lifestyle of “finding herself”, or as Dalrock wryly noted, the “season of singleness.” Paul describes young women who pursue the “season of singleness” as following Satan, even though they were members of the church.
What then might truly be foolish and worldly talk? Foolish and worldly talk, as practiced in many churches today, as I have seen and heard first hand, is encouraging young women to put off marriage for college and career. If a young woman loses her virginity at 17 on prom night the members of her church may act mildly embarrassed and titter, but few see it as a real problem. If a young woman from that same church stays a virgin until her wedding night at age 18 the church will be scandalized; especially if she is a bright and pretty girl with “good college prospects.” This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk, as I have seen and heard first hand in churches I have attended, is when Christian fathers send their 18 year old daughters off alone to a college campus in a far off city where they will be surrounded by sexual immorality and expected to join in with the general bacchanalia. She may be drunk and passed out in a frat house, but at least she’s in college and unmarried. This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk, as I have seen first hand, is churches that discourage young Christians from getting married because they “aren’t ready yet,” and who mock Christian families who have “too many” children, often with snide remarks such as “don’t they know what causes that yet?” It would be unthinkable in these churches to criticize a “godly single mother” who has a brood of bastards in tow when she shows up looking for a handout, but a young married woman who has never asked a dime of anyone at the church is fair game for ridicule because she and her husband believe that children are a gift from the Lord. Truly, they call good evil and evil good. This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk is the practice by some Christian fathers of teaching their daughters from an early age that they must get as much education as possible, and advance their careers as far as possible, because there is no way that they can count on their future husbands to support them; because these good Christian fathers just know deep down that all those awful young men are going to leave their daughters destitute and abandon them, so it is imperative in them to inculcate distrust and disrespect for their daughters’ future Christian husbands as early as possible. I have seen this one up close and personal; the fall out is more ugly than I can describe, but he was a good Christian father so what can I say? This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk is the good Christian father, who together with his good Christian wife, calls their good Christian teenage daughter in and tells her how much they really, really trust her; but just to be on the safe side they are putting her on the pill. They know she’ll always make good choices, but just in case she doesn’t, the pill will be there to save her. This goes on at pretty much every evangelical church I’ve ever seen. This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk is defending the practice of sending your daughter to a public high school where the school counselor will provide her with condoms and advice on the best ways to be sodomized; and where the English teacher she really admires and looks up to is also sponsor for the gay-straight alliance club, and will happily introduce her to a cute lesbian just her age. Of course this never happens at your local public high school; just some far off place. I see good Christian fathers sending their good Christian sons and daughters to those places right now. This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk is defending the fact that you sent your daughter to prom dressed as a high dollar hooker. Or defending the fact that you rented her a hotel room for her after party so that she would be in a “safe place.” Because after all, you really, really trust her, but just in case she makes a mistake, at least she’s on the pill, and is headed off to a good college next fall and is definitely not getting married any time soon. I have seen all this first hand for more than thirty years now, going back to when I was a teen and so many of my good Christian friends had these wonderful experiences provided by their parents. This is foolish and worldly.
Foolish and worldly talk is members of the church mocking young women who somehow find the strength to resist the culture and set their hearts and souls to follow Paul’s admonitions. Good Christian men and women, men and women with whom I prayed and sang hymns, mocking that strange young woman who has a head covering, who married young and never got to go to college, who has four or five young children, who makes a public show of being deferential and respectful to her husband. She’s so odd. I wonder if she’ll show up in a prairie jumper next week? It’s so sad that she missed out on life. This is what their own good Christian daughters here them say of such a woman. God forgive me, in ignorance I did so as well. No more. Because this is foolish and worldly.
Things that We have Heard and Known 
All of this is true, but it will prove very difficult to dislodge.
The main reason why is that over the course of much of the latter 19th to latter 20th Centuries, there was a broad overlap between respectable middle class American lifestyles and Christianity, broadly construed. Sin always abounds in any context, of course, but the broad life script for the middle class didn’t bump up against Christian morals in ways that conflicted. So you had a lot (maybe most) Christians who were very committed to living their middle class lifestyles, and standard America Christianity fit in with that because there really wasn’t much of a conflict in many areas — at least not when it came to the overall life script.
That changed radically with the coming of the latter 20th Century and the changes wrought by feminism, economic shift to service economy, birth control and abortion, sexual revolution and the like, and in the space of a generation it became a middle class norm that your daughters went to college and pursued jobs and careers to be independent earners. That simply became the middle class norm — we all know that. So, most Christians, being committed members of the respectable middle class, followed along with the norm and tried to either shoe-horn it into Christian morals or, often, looked the other way or outright accommodated breaches of those morals so that the pursuit of the middle class life script, new version, was not impeded.
It’s pretty clear that these people are more committed to the worldly middle class life script than to Christianity, but I am not sure that this is so new. I think that the pre-65 era simply didn’t present a conflict between the middle class life script and Christianity, so it was harder to tell who was actually a committed Christian or not — and I strongly suspect that given the speed and virtual uniformity with which middle class Christians adopted the new post-65 life script, it was likely the case that for most of them their primary commitment was always to the middle class lifestyle first, with Christianity being somehow fit into that, if a conflict arises, as it did in the post-65 context.
I think also fathers motives are mixed. In some ways it is “divorce insurance”, because “you never know what will happen”. But in a lot of ways it is about furthering their daughters’ achievements for their own sake, and not as a Plan B mechanism — that is, taking great pride in your daughter’s PhD or MD practice or corporate executive jet setting life has itself become a middle class/upper middle class life norm, quite apart from any divorce insurance/Plan B element.
Simply put, the middle class wholeheartedly adopted feminism, and it didn’t take that much arm twisting of fathers of daughters to do it, in the end. To the extent Christianity conflicts, it is what will get bent in almost all cases, and not the middle class life script. This will be very hard to change, I think, because it is so long-standing at this point in terms of where people’s actual commitments, in a primary sense, really lie.
Great insights and wisdom from Okrahead. Thank you.
Also, thanks to Cane Caldo for posting this.
My church is a farm for colleges in the region. I wonder if the fathers ever question why their daughters aren’t married in their 20’s
Excellent post and excellent comment by Novaseeker.
Paradoxically, from working with a bunch of 18-20 year old women at one point in my career, I don’t think they should be getting married mostly because they are absolute train wreck people. We’re screwing up way earlier in the process.
@Novaseeker
Good discussion.
I think the reason life script didn’t conflict with Christian morals is because by the 19th Century Western Civilization had totally abandoned the idea that life and the world are predicated upon truths or mysteries. Life and the world are seen as mere facts.
Spirit has no place in a world of facts so whatever is spirit becomes to the modern mind indistinguishable from emotion. \
From this perspective, Christianity doesn’t have to “bump up” against anything. It’s just, like, whatever you feel, man.
@ greenmantlehoyos
You have to train children to become decent adults. They don’t just turn out that way. Instead, our culture is indoctrinating girls in the art of bitchiness at an increasingly younger age.
@greenmantlehoyos
They don’t suddenly stop being train wrecks upon hitting 20.
From this perspective, Christianity doesn’t have to “bump up” against anything. It’s just, like, whatever you feel, man.
Yes, that’s true as well and has also exacerbated the problem to a great extent.
What is spirit? What is the modern mind missing?
I assume your usage here includes things like “spirit of obedience”, or “spirit of disobedience” … but what is it?
Cane… thanks for the opportunity, I’ve enjoyed this quite a bit.
Bee… thanks for the encouragement.
Novaseeker… This is no new problem. We are facing the problem of Christians who have failed to heed the warning “be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed.” We have too many professed Christians in our churches who are not transformed, but are instead conforming to the carnal mindset of the society around them.
Our situation is in many ways parallel to that of the late stage of the Roman empire, just before the arrival of Alaric and his merry band of undocumented migrants. Pelagius, who had recently arrived in Rome for the purpose of studying and writing a commentary on the Pauline epistles was aghast to find the city full of “conforming pagans.” The supposedly Christian populace of Rome was full of citizens who professed Christianity for political and economic advantage, yet who still clung to the pagan practices of the old Roman deities. Our churches are in a similar situation today, but at least we can take comfort in knowing that there are no hordes of barbarians crossing the borders into our nation as they did Rome.
The theology against both Contraception and Divorce are solid – None before 1930 accepted Contraception as anything but a form of sodomy, and most considered Divorce either very wrong and only for grave reasons or not possible (much less remarriage and serial polygamy).
Note that it is now acceptable to have permanent Usury in the form of student loans, but not permanent (or even covenant) marriage.
But on the other side, there’s also the worse problem with turning boys into men. There is even greater acceptance of “boys will be boys” in terms of pornography, especially now with the internet. Even the “promise keepers” that had the gathering in DC – the hotels report as much porn was purchased by them as anyone else. What happened to custody of the eyes? Perhaps part of sexual equality is happening here.
Even the “good” fathers aren’t sure – you can have purity rings, but then have the daughter stay at home (take online courses), have chaperoned “dates”, and wait untli some good man asks the father for the daughter’s hand in marriage. Women can’t tell wolves from sheep dogs.
Its also easier out in the country, and it is possible now if you can do an online business and will do the work for fresh food – gardens, hens, etc. You won’t have the McMansion, but you can homeschool more easily and be around Christians (see American Redoubt).
Are you putting God and Jesus first, and your family second – their souls, not their material well being.
There are no unicorns, but there are good women and good men, but you don’t find good fish in a cesspool.
Thank you Cane and Okrahead. I’m going to save this one. Also, greenmantlehoyos is correct about the problem starting much earlier than college. I watched my own daughter go from sweet at 14 to bitter and feminist around age 16. When I noticed it I was able to pull her out in time. Mostly. Vox Day is right, if at all possible, home school. If you have an unbelieving spouse, you’re screwed. Good family environment can halt the slide somewhat, but they are being bombarded non-stop at earlier and earlier ages and it is having an effect. High Schools hand out “social justice studies” awards. Gays and trans are protected and celebrated. Its gone way beyond the “condom on a banana” stage in Anglo grade schools and high schools. Miscegenation is promoted and celebrated and acted on to a degree you would not believe. Who cares about college when they are already corrupted coming out of high school.
Just as the Babylonian women had to go to the temple of Aphrodite and sell their virginity to the first stranger that tossed them a coin (c.f. Herodotus) the high schools are encouraging something very similar, sacrificing their virginity to the god of political correctness and diversity.
You have to train children to become decent adults.
To be precise, you need to train them to maturity with the expectation that they marry from 18 to early 20s, so that they are actually fit to marry young.
Parents are increasingly forgetting that their main duty is to raise their children so that they become mature adults. Instead they think ‘get them to college and then my job’s done’, unsurprising a lengthening ‘adolescence’ and youths having trouble with ‘adulting’ is an increasing problem.
Excellent piece and discussion.
It hearkened me back to what Novaseeker said in an earlier thread about material outcomes being paramount. This despite what we (are supposed to) know about “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul”.
God forgive me, in ignorance I did so as well.
This has to be nearly all of us, and why I understand GW’s reaction that started this train rolling. There was a time and not too long ago when I would have received the truth in these matters with disbelief and possibly the annoyance he showed. Church families are different. Church girls are different. Your best bet is to find a good church girl, son.
At the end of the day, not so much.
@ LP
That is insufficient, but still true. After all, the ones outside the church are even worse.
Oscar,
You have posted that picture twice now and it doesn’t get commenters. I am with you and find that picture an excellent distillation of the troubles in the church. She is the fruit of a worldly and foolish parenting and indistinguishable from what Christians want for their daughters.
Damn Cane.
One of the best posts ever.
@Pedat
It is a good one. All credit goes to Okrahead.
@Sir Hamster
Any real but invisible force that animates or informs or inspires (a bit of a redundancy there) living beings.
Calling evil good is the wrong way, though.
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@Alyssa
There are probably lots of people on the Internet who would appreciate your off-topic banter. I do not.
If Christians want to raise godly children who are citizens of heaven rather than sons and daughters of perdition, then a whole bunch of things will need to happen. And they will tend to fall like dominos.
1) Men must only marry truly devout submissive women who see divorce as completely unthinkable.
2) Truly devout, submissive women will want to raise godly children and keep the home in quietness, meekness and humility
3) Women staying home to raise their children mean there will be almost exclusively one-income households
4) One-income households mean that in the vast majority of families financial strains will be the rule, not the exception
5) With finances always tight, the family will need to locate in a low cost-of-living area, most likely a more rural location, with easy access to the local Church
6) Being out in the country, combined with the complete moral degradation of both public and private schools, mean that homeschooling will be the only acceptable solution almost everyone
7) Homeschooling the children means that outside activities – sports and other things that society values, but which are largely irrelevant to the Christian life – will be devalued and often completely eliminated. Especially in combination of financial constraints (#5)
8) The children will be raised as being “weird” and “different” – even according to the standards of the local Church, sadly – and so the family must either hunker down or find a few other like-minded families to unite and interact with
9) With life now centered around Christ, Church and family, the focus of training young boys to become men who can provide for their eventual families and to lead their wife and children spiritually is paramount. Likewise, training young girls to learn domestic arts conducive to a happy, frugal, productive and ordered homelife is critical.***
10) This also suggests that marriage will happen at much earlier ages. Earlier, perhaps, then even legally available in some areas.
11) And so marriage needs to be disconnected from the State. Young men and women should marry in the eyes and under the authority of the Church and let the State do whatever it wants, but they’re not required to partake.
TL;DR If you start to put Christ first, you will find yourself falling into a certain pattern of behavior. Which will be heavily counter-cultural and broadly resisted. If you compromise, then you end up with a lot of the frustrating chimeral combinations seen in many of the local Churches today.
*** I’m an Orthodox Christian, so a monastic vocation for both men and women is fervently desired and a true blessing, but I’m guessing most here are Protestants so I’m leaving that pathway largely untouched.
With my family, both actions have been taken. My parents have taken care of her daughter the entire way through while telling her explicitly to repent. At the same time they have not invited her over to partake in meals or time together as she is unrepentant.
@ orthros
One might even say “peculiar”.
Train up a child in the way that they should go, and they will not depart from it.
But what has that to do with salvation – which, I presume, is the point of all of this? If the parents raise the children in the right manner, the children will not ever need God’s grace? Not. And if we all need God’s grace, no matter how we were raised, aren’t we handing out false hope by emphasizing the raising? Teach the children the word of God, certainly. But it is that word of God, in the hands of the Holy Spirit, that is going to do the work of salvation (or not), regardless of whether the children are in Montana or a penthouse in New York. No man can say that Jesus is Lord without the [help of the] Holy Spirit. No matter how they were raised.
There are all kinds of good reasons for raising a family out in the country, away from the excesses of the city. But guaranteeing the salvation of the kids is not one of them. The Bible does not support that point of view.
Which is to say – what is the value of having been taught to be the most submissive wife ever, and being that, and still ending up in hell alongside the girl with the thousand-cock stare?
@ RichardP
Two question for you.
Do you have children?
Does environment have any effect on character?
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Hats off to you okrahead, very good post. As I read it I could feel righteous anger swell in my soul, this kind of rhetoric is very valuable. Reminds me of how I felt reading some of dalrocks great posts. Commentor orthros shared some good insights aswell, it seems change will only be occurring at a micro level. Society is supposed to benefit us, as it loses this purpose it deserves to perish. I am a young man looking for a wife and I can’t imagine what I would have gotten myself into without reading blogs that share this information. Keep up the good work everyone
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