DoW IV: No Good Words for Bad Deeds

This is the final post in this series Discussion on Whores.It is long and full of Bible quotes. I believe them to be necessary, but perhaps someone else could have summarized more succinctly. Frustratingly, this won’t be the last time we have to deal with it because sentiments like below are everywhere in Christian culture:

Certainly not all young females who delay marriage do so because they want to fornicate with multiple men, and in the church this demographic is rarer. Normal women tend to want to get married. The number of loving Christian fathers who are okay with their daughters whoring around is zero. Let’s put aside foolish and worldly talk.

The bolded part is meant to be a coup de grâce for the whole conversation on why Christian women have the reputation for being whores. It is a reference to this passage of Ephesians 4:

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Good stuff, but I do not believe that God (through St. Paul) gave us this command to keep us from right thought and speech about corrupted things. Like the vast majority of Christians, GW lifted this one verse out of its context; which is much larger; in fact the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5:

4 25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. 

5 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

The bold part is what this blog is all about. I am sure that at times I am guilty of corrupting talk, but what Christians mean when they bring up Ephesians 4:29 is “Shut up! It sounds dirty when you bring the works of darkness into the light! The way of women is upon her. She’s not choosing to be disrespectful to her father and filthy. She’s just the way God made her.” Like Rachel, they want to hide their beloved household gods of romance and female headship under the cover of filthiness.

33 So Laban went into Jacob’s tent and into Leah’s tent and into the tent of the two female servants, but he did not find [his household idols]. And he went out of Leah’s tent and entered Rachel’s. 34 Now Rachel had taken the household gods and put them in the camel’s saddle and sat on them. Laban felt all about the tent, but did not find them. 35 And she said to her father, “Let not my lord be angry that I cannot rise before you, for the way of women is upon me.” So he searched but did not find the household gods.

I do not believe God meant us to avoid clear speech on sin. Here is God, speaking through His prophet Ezekiel about the kingdoms of Israel and Judah:

“Oholah played the whore while she was mine, and she lusted after her lovers the Assyrians, warriors clothed in purple, governors and commanders, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding on horses. She bestowed her whoring upon them, the choicest men of Assyria all of them, and she defiled herself with all the idols of everyone after whom she lusted. She did not give up her whoring that she had begun in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her and handled her virgin bosom and poured out their whoring lust upon her.

[…]

11 “Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister. […] 18 When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister. 19 Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt 20 and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses. 21 Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts.”

Ezekiel wrote figuratively about the kingdoms. [1] What I write about (and the term Dalrock used which prompted GW’s comment: “cock carousel”) are these exact filthy acts which actually occur among confessing Christians at a rate which is much closer to 100% than to 0%It is the pathetic case that Biblical teaching has been totally crushed among American Christians because we prefer worldly notions of success to Christ, and all Christians can do is refuse to talk about it, hope no one notices, and rebuke those who bring into the light one of the 90%+ cases.

Most of us are or will be married to former whores; like Hosea except that most of us weren’t any better. So don’t miss Hosea’s lessons because of silly sentiments.


[1] See more here.

18 thoughts on “DoW IV: No Good Words for Bad Deeds

  1. I’ve been bothered by that last sentence; it can’t be foolish and worldly talk just because it’s unpleasant. It feels like a huge shoehorn to make that verse apply to what this whole thing is about.

    I keep wondering, what is the worst case scenario in these men’s minds? Seriously what size and shape is the bayonet in their back that they are so invested in making sure that women aren’t ever human or prone to human failings? Virtually every sin and folly has some sort of payoff, either by reward or threat.

    It’s weird to me because haven’t these guys ever read the Bible? Not every woman in there is a saint. The main thrust of the Christian manosphere on this point is pretty common sense stuff, you don’t even have to be a Christian to see it.

  2. @ greenmantlehoyos

    It’s weird to me because haven’t these guys ever read the Bible?

    Or met a woman in real life?

    I learned more truth about female nature as a young enlisted man from my whoring, debauched NCOs that I ever have from the pulpit.

    That should not be so.

    Many young men in the Christian androsphere have commented that they learned more truth about female nature from PUAs than they ever did in Church. Again, this should not be so.

    When a man figures out that the Church has been lying to him about female nature for decades, the obvious question is; “what other lies have they been telling me?”

    There are few more effective ways to shake a man’s faith.

  3. @ Lexet Blog

    I’m not sure if a former whore exists.

    They exist.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    The transforming power of the Gospel doesn’t stop at whores. The problem is that these days most Christians no longer expect whores to be transformed, or sanctified. They do not expect repentance.

    Likewise, Christians no longer expect repentance, or transformation, or sanctification of sodomites.

    Why not? Because in both cases, the Church is being conformed to the World.

  4. Paul’s commands to young women: From Titus 2:

    “4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed”

    From I Timothy 5:

    “14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

    15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.”

    Notice here that Paul specifically prohibits the notion of putting off marriage to go live a lifestyle of “finding herself” for the young women. He describes those who do so as following Satan, even though they were members of the Ephesian church.

    Paul does allow for young women to voluntarily remain single in time of persecution per 1 Cor. 7; yet this is accompanied by a command for absolute celibacy and a life dedicated entirely to holy service; it is not about that next college humanities degree and a sweet hr gig while downing fruity cocktails with the girlfriends and only “occasionally” having sex with someone she is “really into”.

    Foolish and worldly talk is telling young women to put off marriage for college and career. Foolish and worldly talk is sending your daughter off alone to a college campus in a far off city where she will be surrounded by sexual immorality and expected to join in with it.
    Foolish and worldly talk is discouraging young Christians from getting married and having multiple children at an early age.
    Foolish and worldly talk is telling your daughter to get a college degree because she cannot count on her Christian husband to provide for her.
    Foolish and worldly talk is telling your teenage daughter you really trust her, but that you are going to go ahead and put her on the pill.
    Foolish and worldly talk is sending your daughter to a public high school where she will be offered condoms and advice on the best ways to be sodomized by her counselors.
    Foolish and worldly talk is sending your daughter to prom dressed as a high-dollar prostitute.
    Foolish and worldly talk is renting a hotel room for your daughter for her prom after-party.
    Foolish and worldly talk is gossiping and maligning married Christian couples in your church who have “too many” children.
    Foolish and worldly talk is mocking women in the church who still choose to wear a head covering.

    All this in the church i attended I have seen and heard, and God forgive me in the past some of it I was a part of.

    No more.

  5. @Oscar, bingo. That’s why I’m kind of lucky in that I learned how to be a Christian outside the evangelical bubble first. It was still a “shock” learning some truths, but my faith wasn’t really shaken by it. It actually seemed kind of obvious, like “OOOOHHHH, of course!” I dodged some serious bullets by being “red pilled” though. It took a while to really slough off the old goofy attitudes in full but it’s kind of about survival. A bad marriage is a special kind of misery and I feel like we’re just sending young men to the wood chipper for basically no reason.

  6. “I’m not sure if a former whore exists.”

    I think Lexet means to emphasize the word “former”, as in, “once a hoe, always a hoe”. The defilement is permanent.

  7. Jack, sin has consequences, and sexual sins in particular affect our psyches far more deeply than we care to admit. Nevertheless, it is possible for a former whore to be cleansed of her sins by the blood of Christ, with continual repentance, and to choose every day to live chastely.

  8. @Lexet, Jack & Lue-Yee

    I don’t know what Lexet meant, but I think it is helpful to think of sin in terms of wounds and scars. Cutters’ wounds heal, but the scars may be displayed for the life of the body. Scars don’t make one a cutter forever, but they are there and may cause problems or restrict opportunities in the future even after repentance from self-harm.

  9. @Okrahead

    Notice here that Paul specifically prohibits the notion of putting off marriage to go live a lifestyle of “finding herself” for the young women. He describes those who do so as following Satan, even though they were members of the Ephesian church.

    Paul does allow for young women to voluntarily remain single in time of persecution per 1 Cor. 7; yet this is accompanied by a command for absolute celibacy and a life dedicated entirely to holy service; it is not about that next college humanities degree and a sweet hr gig while downing fruity cocktails with the girlfriends and only “occasionally” having sex with someone she is “really into”.

    I believe the preferred term is season of singleness.

  10. @ Jack

    I think Lexet means to emphasize the word “former”, as in, “once a hoe, always a hoe”. The defilement is permanent.

    That’s why I emphasized the word were in 1 Cor 6:11.

    If we accept that “there are no former whores” (i.e., fornicators), or that “once a hoe, always a hoe” (i.e., fornicators), then we have to also accept that…

    there are no former “fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners”. And since we can all find ourselves somewhere on that list, then none of us “will inherit the kingdom of God”.

    Or, we could accept that the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, told us the truth in 1 Cor 6, and if the Corinthians, as messed up as they were (have you read that letter?) could be transformed, and sanctified, and leave their old ways behind, then so can we.

    Which means we should expect transformation and sanctification of ourselves and each other.

    Are there still “scars”, as Cane says? Are there risks to marrying a former fornicator? A former idolater? A former adulterer? A former thief? A former drunk?

    Of course there are.

    We should be honest about that, too.

  11. When a man figures out that the Church has been lying to him about female nature for decades, the obvious question is; “what other lies have they been telling me?”

    There are few more effective ways to shake a man’s faith.

    This is exactly right. I went through this process myself. In fact, this is such a big deal that we see things like the It’s Good To Be A Man project, the goal of which is to soften the blow and keep men from asking what ways the church has lied to them.

    The majority of churches that are aware of men’s issues don’t want to humble themselves and admit they are wrong. Instead, they are trying to coopt the manosphere.

  12. Speaking of season of singleness, here is an ERLC* article I just found on the subject.
    3 reasons why God may be extending your singleness

    The vast majority of young people today want to get married. The most rigorous and reliable surveys available today put the number in the high 90th percentile. Yet they are waiting longer today to get married than any other generation in recorded history. There are multiple cultural factors influencing this trend, some good and some bad. Yet in this moment, I would like to focus less on social trends and more on the reasons why God might be extending your season of singleness. They may not be what you expect.

    You can’t make this stuff up.

    *Russell Moore’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, an entity of the Southern Baptist Convention.

  13. There are always temporal consequences to be lived out after one is cleansed in the Word. That robber next to Jesus was saved, but he still had to live out the temporal consequences of his sin, which was the completion of his death sentence. That ho over there was saved, but she still has to deal with the consequences of what happened to her body, mind and spirit during her cock carousel days. Those who carry it well do exist, but many don’t, that is the risk factor when a man meets someone like that.

    I was looking at that post you linked to at the end. I had forgotten about that one, how good it was. Plus the clarity Deep Strength and Zippy brought to the comments. Really, really good stuff.

  14. Pingback: Your actions reveal your priorities – Moose Norseman

  15. @ Cane, Lexet, Oscar, Lue-Yee, Angelino, et al.
    Matthew Cochran addressed this issue of confusion in a recent post: Do Single Christian Men Owe Marriage to Single Christian Moms?

    “Well, coram deo, there is no judgment to be made, for all the faithful are pure & perfect while all the unfaithful are totally depraved. That is precisely why Christians, when considering whether someone would make a good wife (or husband), always do so coram mundo. Coram deo, Even the penitent but struggling prostitute is just as pure as the sinless Son of God. That doesn’t mean she would make a good wife.

    As long as one thinks a man should actually evaluate a woman as a prospective wife rather than marrying completely indiscriminately, then it must be done coram mundo. And as long as any such evaluation is going to take place, then men are going to prefer debt-free virgins without tattoos, all other things being equal. The author desperately tries to tie that male preference for virginity to pimply 17-year-olds at youth camp, but as I’ve written before, that preference is rooted in natural law, biological reality, and God’s Word–not in vanity as the author asserts. This God-given preference cannot and should not be overwritten by worldly philosophies, and none of the author’s deceptive rhetoric changes anything on that count.”

  16. People being silly about such things are really only enemies at the end of the day. That being said, I do appreciate the subtlety of euphemism, and simile, over metaphor; but, that’s basically just fine-tuning.

    A.J.P.

  17. If a “former whore” starts covering her head every day like her more chaste, Christian ancestors, then her protests of goodness sound more believable. Since women are very susceptible to social pressures are are easily talked into things, good or bad, a head-covering is a huge demonstration of virtue for any woman. Just like having piercings and neon-coloured hair is an indication of “stay away from me, I’m sick” (even as the woman in question may seem superficially O.K. and functioning in society because women, are almost chronically adaptable and pleasing in the average social situation), so does the modestly head-covered woman “say” that she is ready for healthy relationships, to include friendly or intimate ones.

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