For the Love of the Game

Within the Christians Men’s Sphere (and even in the larger Men’s Sphere) a theory holds sways when it should not. It is the idea that if a man will be virtuous enough, then it will overflow, and his virtue will overrun onto his wife and daughters. Those who believe in this theory are suffering under one or more errors. One of which is that every aspect of life can be explained with modern economic theories.

But the main error is this: They will not confront the truth that women sin because they want to sin. This is why the same man who says that he should be a better man so that his wife will be “attracted” to follow him (Hahahaha!) will–with his next breath–boast that he will teach his son to be virtuous. They do not believe that their virtue will trickle down to other men such as their son. No, no: Men must be taught virtue!

Do you smell the Traditionalist Feminism I’m stepping in?

It’s actually even worse than I have so far stated because the virtues of a man are not the same as those of women. Some expect that the man’s virtue of speaking a word in church will magically be transmuted into a woman’s virtue of silence in church. Others expect worse: That his women will take up manly virtue and raise their voices.

Every Christian men’s outlet I know runs away from this truth: The New Testament, especially The Epistles, explains to us clearly and forthrightly that:

  1. Men are the heads of women. Men are in charge and are to act like it; corporately and individually as the relationship defines. The Author of the Bible does not even say, “Christian men”, or, “Godly men”. It is so ordered through all Creation.
  2. Women individually are to be submissive and therefore obedient to their heads of households.
  3. Women are to be silent in church.
  4. Women are to pray with their heads covered as a sign of submission. There is to be no question about it. Everyone who sees a praying women should see a woman who accepts that her God-given role and glory is to be submissive to God, and her husband or father.

The impulse of men like Tim Bayly, Michael Foster, and Aaron Renn (Hey man, I been there.) is that men must be somehow able to fix themselves. They think this because they want to address our current distress, and because they rightly know that no one can control another person; we aren’t even good at controlling ourselves.

The truth is that American Christians have raised at least four generations of brassy whores[1] and all we can do is talk about how to be the kind of men brassy whores prefer to marry. Throughout these generations Christian leaders and men have been exhorting one another to virtue and godliness with the same terrible results. There are enough books and sermons telling men to be better to fill a hundred libraries. If we want more virtuous men and women, then order must be restored. This means church leaders (bishops, pastors, elders, husbands, fathers, older women [2]) must charge women to be submissive, and to display the signs of submission: covered heads and their silence in church.

The prudential nature of pastoral care demands that we consider the currents of popular culture swirling around us. Because of that I suggest for any leader who wishes to be taken seriously that no less than half of his engendered instructions should be directed at women to be quiet and have some respect.

Do NOT get distracted by the fact that many men within those generations were vicious rather than virtuous. This has always been the case. We’re Christians, we know this. There was not a sudden decline in male virtue which heralded in the generations of whores. Generation-wide whoring began after men signaled the sharing of headship when women were given the vote alongside us, and it accelerated when women stopped covering their heads at church. When American Christian women gave up submission and the sign of submission, their next step was to become whores..and not even for the economics. They are whores for the romance and excitement. They whore for the love of the Game.

If you need an economics tie-in to hear me: It’s the brassy whores, stupid.


[1] If she wasn’t a virgin at marriage, and she wasn’t raped, she whored around at some point. We used to discreetly acknowledge this with the phrase “make an honest woman of her”, but we’re way past the point now where discretion can be understood.

[2] As in, something like a grandmother. Paul wasn’t referring to a five years older bestie.

67 thoughts on “For the Love of the Game

  1. Young men tend to be childish and are often trying to be women. My own son in law throws temper tantrums and would prefer to stay home and take care of his baby rather than going to work and earning a living to support the family. Because of tough love, he is looking for a job while he works as a taxi driver. My daughter is a surgeon and has people’s lives in her hands and is sleep deprived because of her work, the new baby, and the old baby (son-in-law). Someone died because Daughter Gamer was so sleep-deprived and she was fired, so she moved back with her parents to catch up on her sleep. If SIL can become an oak, Daughter Gamer will reconcile. (I strongly hope that he will!) Otherwise, it’s divorce court.

  2. theasdgamer,

    Your SIL is not the only one to blame in your family mess. You allowed (maybe even encouraged) your daughter to pursue a 15 year all consuming career that turbo-charged her hypergamy and status. There is no way a taxi driver can earn enough money to provide for a female surgeon and their baby. The surgeon has already become accustomed to a high status, high expense lifestyle.

    You and your wife allowed your daughter to be setup for serious marriage/family problems.

    I hope it does not result in divorce.

  3. Women are wired to submit and obey. If it is not the husband or father, or maybe Mother Superior for nuns, they are submitting to something demonic.

    Or the other enemy, the world – wealth, power, status – if the devil directly would be too obvious.

    And the devil isn’t waiting for evil by osmosis, he is actually trying to turn every woman into a witch, bitch, and/or whore daily with the same subtlety he used in Eden – and note Adam submitted to Eve and wrecked our spirits. And sotto voce, if you really want a baby, you can have one when you’re 50 and set financially and you can have it all – later.

    Insisting on virtue from your women is the simplest defense, especially in small things.

    And let me guess theasdgamer, Daughter Gamer has 6 figure student loan debt so “not having it all” is not an option. Will Mr. Mom get custody and Daughter Gamer child support payments atop student loan debt?

    That is something missing from the above “Brassy Whores”. “Deeply indebted brassy whores”.

  4. I’m being practical. Surely, I was blue pilled about women working. I should have encouraged my daughter to marry a physician rather than pursuing medicine as a career. The SIL is totally to blame for his nonsense, however. He was probably the best option for my daughter, even silly as he is. So now it’s a mission of fixing both daughter and SIL.

    Daughter Gamer has not pursued a “high status, high expense lifestyle.”

  5. Something happened when we abandoned headcoverings.

    I’ve been meaning to cover that for awhile, but I have been incredibly busy as of late.

  6. @theasdgamer

    Please understand that I’m not poking fun and there is no sarcasm in my following comment.

    If your daughter divorces her husband, then she will prove she is a whore; one who wasn’t even wise enough to be hired by a john with more money than her, and one who killed someone in pursuit of her whims. Those are the stakes if your story is true.

  7. Theasdgamer:
    First, congratulations on making a caricature of yourself: First, do the stereotypical older churchian amog talking trash about how pathetic and useless all “young men” are, and setting yourself up as the only real man in the room. Then make fun of your son in law, and show how much more of a real man you are than he is, and how much more of a man your daughter is than her husband. Way to go churchian amog dad.
    Next, speakers who are trying to shift or avoid blame often use the passive voice in their writing, such as, “Someone died because Daughter Gamer was so sleep-deprived and she was fired…” Let’s put that in the active voice instead… “My daughter screwed up and killed one of her patients, so now she’s been justifiably terminated from her employment and is back home with her tail between her legs, and I’m going to blame it all on her husband.” There, fixed it for you. She has a new baby and is losing sleep? EVERYONE who has a new baby loses sleep. That is not your son in law’s fault; in point of fact from your description of events it sounds as if he has tried to help her with that.
    So let’s sum things up: 1) Your daughter is a failure as a wife. 2) Your daughter is failing as a mother. 3) Your daughter is a failure at her career. Rather than confront this, you blame your son in law, as well as all young men in general, and have your daughter move back into your home while you threaten your son in law with divorce. Is having a married woman, any married woman, live with you while you amog her husband the right thing to do? Is doing this with your own daughter spiritually or psychologically healthy for either of you? Talk about daddy issues.

  8. Cane,
    If you have any thoughts I’d like to here them about what to do when you have older relatives/parents who espouse the teachings you deal with in this article. If, for example, (just for a friend who was asking, of course) you have older relatives who teach that women can and should speak out in the assembly, need not bother with head coverings, etc., how can you deal with that situation. I don’t believe that the lack of respect that they’re teaching women justifies a lack of respect to my elders, and they do not seem very inclined to listen when I object to their teachings and practices; teachings and practices with which I was raised. I know a man’s foes will be those of his own household; I am beginning to wonder if that’s what I am being forced to face over these issues.
    Thanks,
    Okrahead

  9. Red Pill, not churchian. Young men are generally pathetic. You need to read more. Young men have been screwed up by the Blue Pill and generally have work to do to fix themselves. Cane should address this more. Thinking that young men don’t need to be fixed is very Blue Pill. They are generally low testosterone/high estrogen and out of control emotional storms. Denying this is Purple Pill at best.

    No, daughter didn’t kill the patient, but she didn’t use the most conservative device. The patient was more brittle than he seemed, being fairly young. Most men in her specialty have done the same thing. The real reason for the firing is that daughter didn’t announce up front that she is pregnant. During hiring, they asked if she wanted children and she said yes, but didn’t say that she was pregnant. Textbook sexual discrimination. The group is toxic and has fired the last two men whom it has hired. The group invented a sexual harassment allegation against one of them and stopped work on obtaining a license for the other after he gave notice (to prevent him from working in the state) and he blew up at them. A revolving door for new doctors. Toxic.

    SIL ranted when daughter got home, following her around the house, interrupting her from caring for the baby, creating drama like a little girl, ultimately stealing time from daughter’s sleep, which was already precarious due to the baby. Chased her out of her own house several times. SIL never got up from sleep to care for the baby, didn’t wash bottles, etc. But he still wanted to be the baby’s nanny.

    I have heard SIL twice, ranting and acting like a little girl. Childish and pathetic.

    SIL drove in my yard (maybe accidentally when there was snow on the ground) and lied about it. Until he apologizes and admits lying, he is banned from the house. SIL has a habit of denying doing shit and avoiding owning it. Once he stopped up the toilet and denied doing it.

    A woman will go to a man who she can submit to. It took months for daughter to separate. She should have done it sooner, but she was naive.

    SIL sure isn’t the mighty oak that is impervious to a woman’s storms. He’s more like a girly storm himself. Childish and feminine.

    Again, I don’t recommend that women who want a family and kids take on a clinical career. 20/20 hindsight thanks to the Red Pill. I also don’t recommend marriage to young men, unless they have done the work to fix themselves.

  10. I have heard SIL twice, ranting and acting like a little girl. Childish and pathetic.

    SIL drove in my yard (maybe accidentally when there was snow on the ground) and lied about it. Until he apologizes and admits lying, he is banned from the house. SIL has a habit of denying doing shit and avoiding owning it.

    Why did you entrust your daughter to such a man?

  11. I think you’re missing the point here.

    Earlier in this very thread you told us that SIL was looking for a job WHILE actually working as a taxi driver. He also apparently is living with a baby as well who he cares for.

    You have done nothing but tear him down the whole time.

    Thus the issue.

  12. This is how it looks:

    1) SIL has a job
    2) SIL is looking for a better job
    3) SIL actually tries to look after the baby sometimes
    4) Daughter lost her job
    5) Daughter separated from her husband

    Conclusion: SIL is a loser and that’s why your daughter separated.

    ???

  13. Tear him down = saying red pill stuff about the situation…he’s working part time as a taxi driver…what you are doing is purple pill…learn to own your shit and act like a man. Period.

  14. Temporary separation can be a good thing if it brings necessary change. Tough love. If a “man” acts like a child, how can a woman follow him? Be serious.

  15. You are the one who actually said your daughter, after losing her job in a manner thst cost someone their life, SHOULD have left her husband, who has a job amd is looking for a better one AND apparently wants to help eith the baby, not me.

    Look, it’s a personal family situation and I don’t know all of the facts, but you’re the guy airing dirty laundry here. And it smells.

  16. We should be discussing Cane’s post. The changes he suggests here are much more significant and socially necessary than the personal problems of theasdgamer and his children have.

    I apologize for participating in sidetracking the comments.

    Ignoring women’s rebellion for the last 4 generations has been a huge mistake. We need to start in our churches and families.

  17. Left her husband who was acting like a child and moved back home so that she could rest? Absolutely. SIL doesn’t want to work. Wants to be a full time stay at home nanny. He’s now working out of necessity. Tough love works.

  18. Supporting a divorce is not loving.

    That said, I found the blogpost to be edifying: a woman knowing the concrete particulars of her placement in Christendom is important: she is, often, her husband’s “body,” so please spare our women over philosophising, historicising and abstracting.

    Yea, women and all mature females love the game, naturally, but this nature must be tamed. And men need to stop dreaming about idealised women (because they often idealise the wrong sort, or fictional woman) and stop poisoning themselves with the media of an anti-Christian, albeit sometime permissive, establishment. Better to learn of the fantastic and supernatural miracles of the saints then to watch some poorly written show that plants bad seeds of immoral personalities and outcomes, yet which is set in a world that contains exclusively regular happenings.

    But listen, brothers, women really aren’t that smart, this is why the woman gets a husband, you know, a job titled which may be used interchangeably with that of the man who occupies himself with animal husbandry, such as being coward, shepherd, etc. If a man lets his female relatives avoid him getting important information (instructions) to them by their use of “high verbal I.Q.” or some such nonsense, then I doubt if such a man will be found blameless.

    A.J.P.

  19. Theasdgamer is clearly part of the problem.
    Original: My daughter killed her patient and got fired.
    New: My daughter got fired for being pregnant and having a kid, killing the patient was just a corollary event: HAHAHAHA No high-powered female employee gets canned for being pregnant in today’s world. Your precious princess killed a man and got kicked to the curb for it.
    You allege your son in law 1) accidentally drove onto your lawn when there was snow on the ground and 2) stopped up the toilet. According to you, SIL disputes both and so you have barred him from your house (while his wife and possibly his daughter are there).
    Your precious princess 1) killed a man and 2) is in the process of destroying her marriage. These crimes, unlike minor lawn damage and having to unplug a toilet, are completely forgivable, even while she denies culpability. I see why you emphasize the ASD part of your personality since you seem to have absolutely 0 self awareness. You have raised your daughter to be one of the brassy whores Cane talks about in this post, and seem to be extremely proud of having done so.
    Seriously though, I really have to admire the way you can prioritize your grass over a human life. It’s not pathetic at all.

  20. Facilitating and encouraging divorce does not resolve the original error, but only compounds it.

    Regarding Cane’s post, the problem with most traditional churches is that they don’t actually believe Scripture, but stick to (some of) the letter of it out of pure inertia. So they don’t actually believe that male headship is a good or necessary thing, but block female pastors because ‘the older members will get mad and we can’t call ourselves traditional and Bible-following otherwise’.

    The same is increasingly so about homosexual acts, the younger generation doesn’t believe that they are intrinsically wrong, ‘but because Scripture says it’s a sin, we’ll have to follow Scripture (for now)’.

    It’s legalistic LARPing, they don’t actually believe in the rules but will enforce them somewhat because that’s part of the game.

  21. The older forms and habits can be brought back and commanded, but unless they’re truly believed in it’s all just the same sort of LARPing.

  22. @theasdgamer,

    You don’t understand the gist of my post.

    I am not an oak. You are not an oak. We are men. Men, like women, are imperfect. It should trouble you greatly if your daughter’s response to her husbands imperfection is to threaten to divorce him and be a whore.

    @Lexet

    Something happened when we abandoned headcoverings.

    What happened was we removed the symbol (and therefore statement) of women’s submission to God and men. If a manager says to an underling, “You no longer have to wear business casual clothes to work.”, he is sure to next appear in jeans, and later shorts because the underling would lose his understanding of the goodness of respectable clothing; even if the manager continues dressing in business casual clothes.

  23. okrahead:

    Your precious princess killed a man and got kicked to the curb for it.

    In many medical specialties doctors inadvertently killing a non-zero number of patients per year is normal and expected. They don’t get fired for this unless it’s an egregious error, but of course this can be used as an excuse to fire.

  24. Emotionally. I am an oak to Mrs. Gamer. She has her storms and I pretty much ignore them. I enforce my boundaries if she transgresses them. I used to respond to storms with storms, and that was an utter failure. Things are much better at home now.

    “One who is slow to anger is better than the mighty; one who rules his spirit, than he who takes a city.”

    Self-control shows strength and maturity. SIL shows weakness and immaturity, which is unattractive.

    Some of your purple-pillers want to blame women for everything.

    If my daughter is a whore, so is yours. You use a strange definition of whore–pretty much the same as feminists use. Expecting a woman to stay with a man who acts like a child is foolish.

  25. SIL behaves like a child…only works when forced to…wants to stay home and be Mr. Mom if allowed to…pitches emotional storms like a girl…expecting a woman to stay with a man who acts like a child is foolish.

  26. Two things that immediately came to mind reading the OP.

    I saw a gem in the men’s sphere that stuck with me, though I no longer remember the site or the commenter. It goes something like –

    ‘The complementarian is a hesitant, apologetic man that believes his wife is more virtuous than he.’

    In my personal observations I would say this holds for way more church going men than simply the ones that would claim the complementarin doctrines. And it leads directly to things like…

    IF:Gathering

    This has apparently been going on for a few years now but is new information to me. This year the main event will be held in Dallas, TX, Feb. 8-9; but the speakers are broadcast far and wide so that churches everywhere can hold their own local version and piggyback off the sermons from the celebrity women pastors.

    If you care to look it up you can track down the (all women) various speaker, author, seminary graduate, bible study material vendor, etc. types that are exercising their leadership “giftings” to embolden other women to pursue God on their own and not be stopped by the antiquated notions that Cane refers to in the OP.

    TLDR – this is the progression

  27. … stealing time from daughter’s sleep, which was already precarious due to the baby. ~ theadsgamer

    Boy, that sure sounds like a good reason for women to…

    Marry young (more energy)
    Have kids young (same)
    Not work outside the home
    Not pursue careers that require a decade of post-graduate training and chronic sleep deprivation

    He was probably the best option for my daughter… ~ theasdgamer

    Why? Didn’t her prestigious career, age and experience make her a “pearl of great price”, and a “prize to be won”? Why didn’t she have better options? Why weren’t all the male surgeons lining up to marry her? Could it be that the reason she ended up with a “loser” is that she isn’t much of a catch herself?

    Nah. Couldn’t be. Let’s blame it on young men.

  28. TheASDGamer: You gave your daughter to this man, before God, and she belongs to him, for life. No court can change that. Do everything that you can to help him. It sounds like he needs training for a trade, or a degree. Give him a leg up.

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  30. I’ve tried to help him after he asked, but he thinks that he knows it all. He couldn’t even figure out that a breaker had been thrown when an electrical circuit wouldn’t work. I found the errant breaker and fixed it for him. What’s my thanks? He lies about driving through my yard.

  31. My daughter is also now fixing herself and losing weight–fifteen pounds so far. She was mad at me for the longest time (over a year) for saying that she was pathetic for gaining so much weight. Tough love.

  32. @asd: You comment: “A woman will go to a man who she can submit to.” In response to an OP where the first two paragraphs are: “Within the Christians Men’s Sphere (and even in the larger Men’s Sphere) a theory holds sways when it should not. It is the idea that if a man will be virtuous enough, then it will overflow, and his virtue will overrun onto his wife and daughters. . . . But the main error is this: They will not confront the truth that women sin because they want to sin.” I take it that you’re rejecting outright Cane’s argument, though you for some reason aren’t saying so explicitly?

  33. There is no guarantee that a woman will submit to a particular man, but a woman always prefers a man to whom she will submit. Maybe a husband, maybe a bf, maybe Daddy. I’m not sure that Cane and I disagree on that point.

  34. A good way to begin is to prepare a short Bible study on 1 Cor. 11. Sit down with your wife and read through it with her.

    If you need some ideas on parrying the common Churchian rebuttals, this video is good:

  35. She chose an emasculated male as husband, all the better to then take the role of ‘man of the house’ herself, then when s*** hits the fan the husband is not manly enough. She made her own bed.

  36. @theasdgamer

    There is no guarantee that a woman will submit to a particular man, but a woman always prefers a man to whom she will submit. Maybe a husband, maybe a bf, maybe Daddy. I’m not sure that Cane and I disagree on that point.

    We disagree.

    Out of curiosity: Suppose you told your daughter that she had to go home to her husband. What would your wife say?

    @Bee

    Someone (perhaps you) linked to this guy before. I think it was when I wrote a post that “covering” could not be reasonably construed as “long hair” alone. He’s right.

  37. @ GJ

    They all want to be in charge (the Woman’s Curse; Genesis 3), right up until “Murphy shows up and shit goes to hell”. Then, all of a sudden, as if by magic, they transform into damsels in distress, and it’s the husband’s responsibility to rescue them from the consequences of their own decisions.

    It’s been that way since Genesis 3.

    But yeah, it’s young men’s fault. The Woman’s Curse is young men’s fault.

  38. Oscar:

    Conservatives have to support no-fault divorce, because women need the escape option of divorce for frivolous reasons.

  39. @Theasdgamer

    If SIL can become an oak, Daughter Gamer will reconcile. (I strongly hope that he will!) Otherwise, it’s divorce court.

    Lets hope that he caves in and does what she demands by becoming an oak. Otherwise, the only thing for a traditional Christian woman to do is to divorce. On the bright side, a history of divorce shows that a Christian woman takes marriage seriously, so her prospects for a manly, traditional, wise, hard working Christian husband should be better the second (or third, or fourth) time around. Sooner or later, with enough divorces (and ideally a child or three) improving her attractiveness, she’s bound to work her way up the husband ladder to find one worthy of her.

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  41. It think there is still some validity to overflowing character. The Bible repeats over and over how important association is. Iron sharpens iron, so you will be sharpened by the character of those who association with. You will become the same as those you hang around, or read, or watch. This doesn’t mean that other types of instruction aren’t needed or that they are less important, just saying that assocation is a factor. That’s actually one of the reasons the church is such a mess because most send their kids to public schools and their children pick up the character of their peers. It also gives us hope that as God sanctifies us and increases our character we can help those around us, even if we’re not in the direct positions of authority who can use other means.

  42. It’s kind of funny that women are being damned for bad decisions and need rescuing. Daughter and I rescued SIL from his own bad decision last night. Daughter had to yell at SIL to apologize to me for driving in my yard and he did apologize sincerely. SIL is a clueless academic type. He likes to focus on things he can’t change like politics and is generally unaware of people around him and their needs and social signals, but he’s convinced that he is very socially adept.

    Dalrock, do you have some kind of magic wand that you can wave to make women submissive? I found that Game works wonders in marriage. Things have been very peaceful between Mrs. Gamer and me for over a year now and it’s very easy for me. Mrs. Gamer generally seems very happy, except when it comes to SIL.

    Dalrock, I came to the manosphere through your blog. Your blog does a great job discussing the Red Pill about women, but your blog fails to discuss the Red Pill about men. I found that at Rollo’s blog. Maybe being a waystation on the way to Rollo’s blog is your intent, IDK.

  43. But no longer needed is the weighty rationale of abuse or adultery or ‘abuse’, now it’s ‘my husband wasn’t manly enough (because I deliberately picked an emasculated male)’.

  44. Lets hope that he caves in and does what she demands

    How else can he become a strong oak?

    Daughter had to yell at SIL to apologize to me for driving in my yard

    More! More caving in!

  45. @theasdgamer

    Dalrock, do you have some kind of magic wand that you can wave to make women submissive? I found that Game works wonders in marriage. Things have been very peaceful between Mrs. Gamer and me for over a year now and it’s very easy for me. Mrs. Gamer generally seems very happy, except when it comes to SIL.

    I haven’t read your site in a while, but I’m highly confident that another man didn’t make Mrs. Gamer submissive to you by having her move in with him and endlessly AMOGing you. I’m truly baffled that you think this would help your daughter become submissive to her husband. Incidentally, I don’t think it is a coincidence that the reason I finally banned you from commenting on my site was your relentless AMOGing. But in my case the stakes were low, you just can’t comment on a blog. But what you are setting up for your grandchild(ren) is a broken home. Long after your lawn has fully recovered your grandchild will still be suffering.

    The SIL is totally to blame for his nonsense, however. He was probably the best option for my daughter, even silly as he is. So now it’s a mission of fixing both daughter and SIL.

    Part of what I was trying to point out in my previous comment is that as you acknowledge your loser son in law was the best man your daughter could attract for marriage. None of what you describe upthread suggests that she has in the period that has passed since the wedding become a better prospect for a wife. If you are successful in your AMOGing, as I fear you will be, your daughter will find that she needs to dig even deeper in the loser bin. For before she was merely a thirty something career gal. Now she is still the same, but has a track record of divorce, another man’s child, and a father who has proven his ability to wreak chaos on any man foolish enough to marry her. What wise Christian man with options would wife such a woman up? On the bright side, he will be even easier to AMOG. On the downside, your daughter will suffer for the path you have set her on, and your grandchild(ren) will grow up in chaos.

    Dalrock, I came to the manosphere through your blog. Your blog does a great job discussing the Red Pill about women, but your blog fails to discuss the Red Pill about men. I found that at Rollo’s blog. Maybe being a waystation on the way to Rollo’s blog is your intent, IDK.

    You are blaming Rollo for what you are doing to your daughter and grandchild? Does he know this?

  46. On the topic of how to (from the outside) influence a husband to show more leadership, the path your daughter needs to take is the opposite of what you are directing her to do. She can’t crush him into growing a backbone. She can’t demand that he not cave into her demands. I wrote a post way back in 2011 responding to a question by a wife who wanted to encourage her husband to show more leadership:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/how-to-encourage-a-husband-to-show-more-leadership/

    She contacted me a year later to tell me how it was going:
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/update-from-ann/

  47. Dalrock, a few points.

    First, men test one another. It’s part of being a man. On your blog, I was learning how to do it. Now I do it for fun, kind of automatically. But young men nowadays are taught that they aren’t supposed to do this by feminism (it’s BULLYING!!!), so you are very much in line with feminist teaching. So you banned an example of manly behavior from your blog. Well done.

    Second, SIL needs to improve his manliness, showing strength and maturity. He won’t listen to me, but he will listen to Daughter. You use what you can, even if not optimal. But I guess pursuing the mission of improving my SIL to save his marriage makes me a Bad Person ™.

    Third, Daughter has been losing weight and I’ve been providing her with lots of vegetables…if you’re a Chubby Chaser, then you won’t see this as an improvement.

    Fourth, thanks for the link. But there was an emergent situation in the marriage that required immediate attention. Daughter was compromised as far as work goes due to lack of sleep and SIL wasn’t providing any income. Then Daughter was forced to resign. The couple doesn’t have much savings and own a house in another state (which they are preparing to rent) and are renting another house. You are ignoring the emergent character of the situation in your pursuit of a perfect ideal. I will pass on your link to Daughter.

    The biggest emergency was Daughter’s compromised sleep-deprived state as far as work is concerned and that had to be remedied ASAP. Dealing with the extra mortgage payment overhead and getting incomes for the couple are next on the list.

    I’m also teaching Daughter how to game her employers and potential employers…1) cast a wide net to maximize opportunities and options…2) make demands of new employers (one of her coworkers who was fired was able to get a massive increase in pay in his new position with no call for a year)…3) test potential and new employers for their corporate culture toxicity and figure how to game it.

    If SIL can develop an adequate income, Daughter will probably stay home.

    Daughter hasn’t yet done bars after several months of separation. Baby sees SIL most nights.

  48. SIL needs to improve his manliness, showing strength and maturity. He won’t listen to me, but he will listen to Daughter. ~ theasdgamer

    Yep, that’s the ticket. Nag the husband into submitting to his wife, instead of convincing the wife to submit to her husband. That’ll make a man out of him.

  49. That Gamer’s daughter ever managed to marry at all is amazing. Not amazing at all, though, is that she’s now shitting the nest she’s made for herself and putting Proverbs 14:1 into action. This won’t end well, for her or anyone else in the family, but woman’s hypergamous nature, amplified by today’s feminist society, guarantees that she won’t learn any lessons except through suffering, and maybe –probably– not even then.

    Dad has made it clear that he can’t learn, either.

  50. The impulse of men like Tim Bayly, Michael Foster, and Aaron Renn (Hey man, I been there.) is that men must be somehow able to fix themselves.

    Your points are right on in that women are not called out much for their sin in churches right now.

    I do wonder if much of the focus on fixing men results from men being the ones interested in fixing The Problem. Since men want to fix it, and the only one you can effectively repent for is yourself, there will be more material aimed at men.

    Tangentially, this explains the popularity of Game and self improvement as a proposed (if incomplete) solution, as it is about the only way a man can get a woman to follow him without social support.

    “Washing your wife in the word”, or telling her what she needs to fix based on the Bible is something I would like to see modeled by a typical non arousing husband, to see its efficacy. My guess is that it would fail like the hindenburg, but I would dearly love to be proven wrong, as that would be an easy solution.

  51. Pingback: Seen and Heard to Heard and Known | Things that We have Heard and Known

  52. Lets hope that he caves in and does what she demands by becoming an oak. Otherwise, the only thing for a traditional Christian woman to do is to divorce. On the bright side, a history of divorce shows that a Christian woman takes marriage seriously, so her prospects for a manly, traditional, wise, hard working Christian husband should be better the second (or third, or fourth) time around. Sooner or later, with enough divorces (and ideally a child or three) improving her attractiveness, she’s bound to work her way up the husband ladder to find one worthy of her.

    man i love dalrock

  53. expecting a woman to stay with a man who acts like a child is foolish.

    Not to pile on, but God expects exactly that per 1 Peter 3.

    Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives

    I’m not totally unsympathetic here; I have a sister-in-law married to a husband who is not exactly the most useful guy in the world. On the other hand, he is a believer and he’s had a hard life too so I’m not going to undercut him either. They have had problems in their marriage basically to the exact extent that they don’t follow 1 Peter 3. Same has been true in my own marriage. So I’d recommend that any wayward daughters and/or sons-in-laws do what it says.

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